Starting to get disheartened about buying livestock from LFS's.

Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#1
So since getting back in I've been struggling with how things seemed to have changed. Some stuff is just out of anyones hands (prices of nassarius and other CUC being rarer and pricier). But in general the stocking I've seen in stores across the state many seem to be lacking and the health of some of the fish also worse than I remember 2 years ago.

I'm really starting to think I'll only be buying "used" fish in the future because since getting back in the only issues I've had have all been from LFS. Dwarf lion that fairly quickly developed some kind of bacterial disease or something in my QT. None of the other fish caught anything thankfully.

Engineer Goby, in fresh QT with established live rock. Hid and showed no interest in food. No outward sign of disease, perished day 5 or 6.

And the final one from one of the I thought better known and regarded places. Starry blenny, tuxedo urchin, *Female* blue throat trigger. Trigger was supposed to have gone thru more than a month of QT and meds assured should be good to go, others had not. So I opted to put the Starry blenny in QT and just cross my fingers on the trigger in display as I didn't want it in with the other fish from a part of the stores system that was admitted to likely having ick living in that system.
Had the most optimism with this group because of where as well as from the get go salinity being matched. (Vs some of the used fish I had more excitement when they came from a 1.029 and 1.018 in some cases)

Blenny perched day one but seemed skittish and wouldnt eat, took like one pellet I think. Day 2 hiding, won't eat, day 3 morning noticably paler and looking yellowish on underside, dead by I got home from work.

Tuxedo urchin I temp and drip acclimated same as the fish. I think day 2 it was in the same spot the whole time or at least in the evening, day 3 noticed it still not moved and seemed (hard to see) to have dropped spines. Get home that night and pull it from same spot. Was still moving a tiny bit but basically had a tiny hole in the top where the exit should be and no spines left. Noticed a tiny worm/pod kinda thing on it. So diseased or sick urchin I don't know. I had another urchin that was fine in the tank but later on found out the tusk goes for those too. (Not a tusk bite on this thing, tiny hole)

And finally the trigger...really really skittish, couldn't see it well in the store, but other one in tank looked great and was supposed to be thru same process. Next day when I finally catch it out, already has signs of ick.... even if my other QT failed and I did have ick, seems awful fast for having a visible breakout from what I understand of the life cycle of ick. (Hence how TTM works to cure) So spend last 2 weeks feeding it as heavily as I can. It usually always hid and came out when food in water. (only frozen wasn't going for pellet). Rarely would be out. Visibly symptamatic in mornings, by evening the dots seem to recede. Last day or two stopped eating much if any and coming out. Found it up against a gyre tonight. (Thank god, because I was worrrying about it dying deep in the rock tower it hid in that already has sps encrusting sealing it sorta). Bonus points, I think the blue head wrasse that sleeps same place was looking a little hazy or possibly ill recently too.....

In this giant tank got about 0 possibility of catching barring fish hook or maybe it'd go for trap. But really other than keeping tank happy and stable and in turn fish hopefully healthy and able to resist it, I'd have to somehow catch all the fish I do have, somehow run multiple QT since I don't have anything big enough for all them not to mention I really don't think the tusk would tolerate some of the others in a small tank. And then somehow TTM them all. Or possibly TTM a couple at a time AFTER display fallow for the 2-3 months. (Managing them in QT that long without having an oopsie with feeding and ammonia would be fun.)


The last problem is my fault. Even if it's someone or someplace trusted, I should have kept it out of the tank. I just felt the risk was higher with the known 0 QT time fish. (Who had god knows what)

Just seems like it's better if I have to stick to food/supplies and occasional equipment like my huge gear up with Great White and stick to trying to find my stock list from the used market from people I know of here. (And QT still of course) Since while I'm 0/5 on store fish, but 10/10 on used fish (except for the wrasse that jumped day before going in display after 3 months trouble free QT)

Frustrating since my last tank, I don't think I had an issue with any store bought critter except for a copper band butterfly which are notorious anyways. I have plenty of other inverts so I don't think there is any weird toxin issue, salinity devices confirmed with calibration fluid, and temps used digital and glass.
 
#2
There is obviously, and I wish you would post all your parameters on here, a huge problem with your tank. I have bought plenty of livestock over the past couple years and has very little issue. I am not trying to vouch for them, but your issues are too many for it to be just thier issue. Please let us help.
Parameters please.
Alk
Mag
Ca
SG


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scchase

Administrator
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#3
Quarantine everything, not going to dig on anyone specifically, but I have seen fish with velvet at nearly every LFS in the state in the past year, this isn't completely their fault though. All the wholesalers in LA and the transhippers as well are infested with velvet right now in epidemic proportions. The worst part is that the low levels of copper ran at most LFS only mask the symptoms and don't cure so when they fish get home they quickly break out in a full blown infection.
 
#4
I see your posts often and after reading mine know you know what you're doing. I'm just trying to be helpful and not a jerk. But... There is something happening either in your house or in the chemistry of your tank.

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Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#5
Ya..... if the 5 critters out of 16 that have any issue is the store bought. I'm going with the store bought. Most of these are newer and I have all the fish I still got early on 3 months ago. I need to get my testing for this week done, but a sky high nitrate or god forbid some nitrites somehow still would be more apt to affect fish than out of whack "coral" parameters. (And my corals are all fine) Display was Fritz and Kent salt. The different QT's were Kent for one, instant ocean for the rest.

I would accept possibly something in the house/air but again all the fish including fragile stuff like a leapard wrasse, another urchin and other inverts/nems etc all fine. Maybe I just won the 5% lottery over and over again. I've been chased by murphy all my life. (Example, in a game need to roll 2+ on a dozen D6 and will get like half 1's)
 

Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#6
scchase;n658339 said:
Quarantine everything, not going to dig on anyone specifically, but I have seen fish with velvet at nearly every LFS in the state in the past year, this isn't completely their fault though. All the wholesalers in LA and the transhippers as well are infested with velvet right now in epidemic proportions. The worst part is that the low levels of copper ran at most LFS only mask the symptoms and don't cure so when they fish get home they quickly break out in a full blown infection.
Thanks for the insight, I think that solidifies for now no new fish unless it's someone I know has had it a year or so. Like I said I'd still QT them. Just in this situation made I guess the wrong gamble of a choice. (Letting one slip thru to keep it away from the unknown health one)

Also now spooked it's velvet, but if it was I figure I should be seeing other rapid losses when I've had the fish for 2 weeks or so?
 

Fourthwind

Anthias
M.A.S.C Club Member
#7
I understand your frustration. Have had them myself. The fish coming in are stressed as heck from lots of travel and sometimes poor handling. I always ask for fish to be fed before making a decision, and look at the whole tank system. If there is any sign of stress in any of the fish I will hold off. I have also found myself changing my QT methods a bit. Instead of hammering with copper right off I give them a few days of good clean water and observe, and then start with prazi instead of copper just to be sure of nothing internal. I would not recommend live rock in your QT tank. Should be nothing but foam filters and plastic in the tank as the live rock can harbor parasites and absorb medications. I run a foam filter with a small powerhead and an HOB on the back so I can run chemical and mechanical media. Makes for a stable qt environment.
 

aquarius

Blenny
M.A.S.C Club Member
#8
The only parameter I would worry with is ammonia none of the others, including nitrite will kill a saltwater fish. I quarantine every fish I get with copper and prazi for a month no matter where they come from. Also and I'm sure I'll catch hell for this but I don't acclimate anything, out of the bag and into the tank. I've had very good success this way and many of these creatures we keep are not as delicate as we hobbyists would be led to believe. Ich and velvet are extremely common on new arrivals but bacterial infections can be much worse and harder to identify/treat as well as being lethal in many cases.
 

Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#9
Ya, the display and the QT had ammonia alert badge as well as some periodic actual testing.

I agree too long acclimating can be bad. Especially if it's been on a few hours journey in a bag. When you open it the inflow of oxygen helps built up ammonia turn more toxic. (forget the fine chemistry of why) Now when one of the fish was over .05 off I did spend a few hours getting that one matched. But +/- .01 for sure I usually dont fret esp if display the lower value.

I'll admit, while I worry less about the regular meds, copper I've always shied away from. The spook of too much killing or too little doing nothing. Not to mention that tank being no go for inverts from then on when I might still like to use it for a few months observational QT of coral/inverts.

When I get my mandarin in the next year (and unless I get lucky probably have to be store bought) QT'ing that kinda worries me. Before I figured they rarely have ick I thought so may just dump it in, since having enough pods in QT sounds nightmarish. Maybe I could get an established observational QT and if I can get it on frozen TTM into empty tanks with just the pvc etc. Tide it over long enough thru the process to make it into bountiful display.
 

Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#11
What are you doing about feeding and holding it? Theirs might have a better chance of being disease free though since it's not an import but farm raised... problem was I'd really need a jumbo adult, as too small I fear might get picked on. (Previous mandarin was big and ignored by fish would like to keep it that way)
 

fishguy69

Dolphin
M.A.S.C Club Member
#13
We'll are wrapping up our new fish room. We'll be able to still help up the folks up north with all their fish needs.
 

robert.talarico

Tang
M.A.S.C Club Member
#14
It's not just the fish, the corals look like garbage too. All I've been seeing recently is browned out corals and skinny fish. The only LFS I trust anymore is aquatic art.

Even the RO water is crap. Fresh water that is testing positive for phosphates, pre mixed salt that has a 1.021 gravity. I even called a store about their salinity levels after purchase and they told me that 1.021 is fine. Yea, if I want my SPS to look like theirs. This is happening everywhere.

Went to one store in particular (yea, Elite) and all the employees were in the back of the store smoking weed. They realized I was there and brought the smoke and smell in with them to greet my son and I. Smoke all you want, but do you really have to do it at work? No wonder your salt is mixed to 1.021
 
#15
robert.talarico;n661070 said:
It's not just the fish, the corals look like garbage too. All I've been seeing recently is browned out corals and skinny fish. The only LFS I trust anymore is aquatic art.

Even the RO water is crap. Fresh water that is testing positive for phosphates, pre mixed salt that has a 1.021 gravity. I even called a store about their salinity levels after purchase and they told me that 1.021 is fine. Yea, if I want my SPS to look like theirs. This is happening everywhere.

Went to one store in particular (yea, Elite) and all the employees were in the back of the store smoking weed. They realized I was there and brought the smoke and smell in with them to greet my son and I. Smoke all you want, but do you really have to do it at work? No wonder your salt is mixed to 1.021
Sadly this seems to be more the norm then not (in regards to overall impressions of health of livestock of most LFS- yes this is a gross generalization, but an accurate one none the less that seems to be corroberated more and more by others)

I have survival rates of fish in QT of around 50% that come from LFS in the greater denver area. Online orders with guarantees and from friends tanks that I trust, 100% survival rate in QT (all over a 3 year period).

I just assume that any livestock from the main LFS are rescues, more likely then not to be harboring something, and no guarantees of survival. QT is the chance to break the cycle. QT everything, dip everything, etc. Ive broken my tank down a few times and restarted because I was naive about how bad some of these infestations can be.

At the end of the day you just have to decide where you want to take your business, I prefer supporting other hobbyist for my frags and fish I am extremely selective of.
 
#16
I would like to invite you down to our new location. 85% of my fish are QT for a minimum of 3 weeks and they are treated for parasites, worms and bacterial if necessary. If a fish is not eating and doesn't look healthy I do not want to sell him. Plus I offer a 4 day livestock guarantee (fish and coral). However it is pretty easy to see what fish are doing well after 3 weeks, and most fish are here more than 3 weeks. We have two premixed salts, Red Sea Coral Pro, and Tropic Marin Reef and it is checked after every batch that is made up to be at 1.025.
 

Fitz19d

Bat Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#17
Post is kinda old and got bumped. That kind of routine I'm sure helps, but then again that's pretty much the process my plague bringer went thru supposedly and.......

A couple days guarantee is cool. I have been wanting to come see the warehouse now that it's been converted to more of a full on storefront. At the meeting I got dry goods, but probably only place I havn't gotten livestock.
 
#18
This hobby is expensive enough as it is. While I have gone through a lot of changes over the last 2 years, I have got some things done right. I have the systems and the ability to QT the fish and then offer a guarantee because I believe I am selling the healthiest fish available. I didn't start this business because I was tired of what I did. My manufacturing business is still going and I do this because I love it and I want to make a change in the industry. I do not know if you are familiar with the quality of Walt Smith fish and coral out of Fiji, but I bring a lot of his stuff in because they have a short supply chain and the fish are healthier. I would rather have customers come in and buy the fish and coral for their tanks and watch the tank thrive and then they come back to buy another tank or to upgrade equipment because their fish and coral are doing well.
 
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