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10% water changes?

Discussion in 'Tank Chemistry' started by Dr.DiSilicate, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    You are welcome.
     
  2. SynDen

    SynDen Shark Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. M.A.S.C President M.A.S.C Webmaster

    haha..wife wont do them anymore?
     
  3. Andrew_bram

    Andrew_bram Shark M.A.S.C Club Member

    The wife travels with me most of the time now.

    Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  4. timnem70

    timnem70 Amphipod

    Monthly or more on my 5 year 29. 5 gallons on my 25 cube, bi monthly.
    Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk
     
  5. Djmm1177

    Djmm1177 Prawn M.A.S.C Club Member

    40 to 60 gallons weekly
     
  6. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    Doug, that’s a lot of water! Almost 100% in a month. Your tank always looks great but wanna explain the expense? Have you tried less and had bad luck or... just curious as i’ve Never done that much.
     
  7. Djmm1177

    Djmm1177 Prawn M.A.S.C Club Member

    I think you ment Dave, It seems every time I cut back phosphate or nitrates spike . I’ve had maintenance companies try to help me figure out the problem with no explanation. It works so for now I keep spending the money lol! Im also still trying to get my calcium reactor dialed in! I think some people just have the touch. I was hoping with all the upgrades I did to have less maintenance.
     
  8. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    If you want to start a new thread, we can get this figured out. With the people who have come onto the scene since the biocube generation (about the time that Nemo got hot), people just know media and reactors and not really biology and chemistry. Your answers probably lie somewhere in the aragonite also balanced with export.
     
  9. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    Yea, did mean Dave. Lol
     
  10. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    That's not really true. The "biocube generation" is also when RHF entered the scene and revolutionized the way chemistry is understood by the typical hobbyist. Before him very few people understood the chemistry behind tanks and success in that realm was more of a "this worked for this guy and if it ain't broke dont fix it". Biology, maybe, but not Chemistry.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using MASC mobile app
     
  11. Andrew_bram

    Andrew_bram Shark M.A.S.C Club Member

    Sorry to spoil your roll but Mr Farley was reefing for at least a decade before the bio cube generation.

    Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
     
    SynDen and jda123 like this.
  12. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    I remember Dr. RHF articles in the print magazines and for RK online magazine more than a decade before he joined RC. The dude is amazing and has contributed as much as anybody since The WWM and Dr. Ron left the scene. I do think that less people know about chemistry now than they did a few decades ago - they seem to know about chemicals, but not chemistry. I could probably give a talk for two hours about super-important chemistry that nearly nobody knows about anymore like how GFO will release phosphate back into the tank if you change water without changing the GFO... or how phosphate binds in massive quantities to aragonite... or how the black stuff in the sand bed is what you want and is one of the best things in your tank... about how bare bottom does not actually solve any of the problems that people thing (this is also biology) but can still be great for other reason that most people do not think about... the other stuff in melted calcium carbonate that if people truly knew and understood would almost never choose 2/3 part over a CaRx. Many, many people do not know that baking soda (or washing soda) is the same stuff that BRS sells for alk, or ice melt is the same as the calcium additive. Epsom Salt, Muratic Acid, Kalk all were around since they had their uses especially in emergencies.

    I was around in 1995 with almost a decade under my belt and I could gather 50 people in our local club in KC that could walk chemistry laps over any 50 that you could gather today. You had no choice but to understand it or just wait and learn... or actually call a friend or go their home to chew the fat for a few hours. I do wonder how clueless new hobbyists would be without Dr. Holmes-Farley since he does do so much good.

    Even though the years overlap, here is my most current breakdown of the reefing generations. This is about as useful as trying to breakdown Gen X, Gen Y, Millennials, etc., but still kinda fun:
    • Pre 1985-1990 - Discus/African Generation - You dabbled in reefing with the LFS credit that you had from breeding discus and African cichlids. Rare marine stuff was easy to get (like live rock from the Great Barrier Reef), but animals poorly understood and VERY expensive. Very few stores would order stuff, but when they would it was usually nice if you could afford it. You made some really bad and dumb mistakes because you had to learn a bunch of stuff for yourself. This was uncommon, but I used to add on to orders that our local zoo made for fish and inverts.
    • 1985-1995 - TFH/Magazine Generation - Some articles starting to appear in publications that are pretty good. Ads in the back to order high tech stuff like VHOs, MH and a protein skimmer and even livestock - you would cut out the order form and mail a money order and wait for 6-8 weeks. Husbandry got better and there are now a few good books. Hobby is ascending to where most good pet shops at least have a tank or two.
    • 1995-2005 - LFS Generation - This was the golden age of reef keeping. You NEEDED a good LFS for advice and supplies and people truly knew what they were doing (mostly). A lot of people who started at this time are still in the hobby (you know who you are)... they really developed a love affair. Local knowledge was really good and help was given. Internet was just starting up in the early part with sites like WWM and ReefFarmers giving good advice on care and being a good resource without yet being totally commercial. Local clubs were in their hay day with lots of good meetings - this was really all that you had outside of the LFS.
    • 2000-2010 - Biocube Generation - Lots of whim buyers that did not last long in the hobby. People expecting to get the same results out of a 17g cube as you do a 180g tank. Lots of folks cannot truly afford the hobby to begin and ongoing cost is a huge concern with sales going to the internet. LFS start to go bye bye being out priced by the internet and the emergence of know-it-all keepers who do not need their advice enough to pay extra for supplies to keep the doors open. The best thing out of this generation is a huge emergence of commercial tanks and maintenance accounts - you can thank Nemo for this.
    • 2010-2015 - BRS Generation - Most new folks are complete and total experts based on what they read online and watched in a BRS video even though their tank has been wet for a few months with a few boogers that have not even grown over the frag plugs yet. Most of what they read online is from people from the same generation and not the more experienced who have started to retreat and just run their tanks. Few people read a book or take the time to fully understand the process of time and patience and how a tank matures. Lots of people more concerned with a "clean" build than a nice running tank. Controllers get big where some folks know more about pseudo-coding a Apex than they do growing coral.
    • 2016-Now - Farmer Generation - This is still a continuation of the BioCube & BRS generation, but now people frag their nubs to get boogers to sell to try and make a profit. Now everybody wants to be a retail shop out of their tank. Some tanks have more frags on racks than on rocks.
    I am not sure what the next generation will look like. Part of me thinks a renaissance back to the Golden years for a myriad of reasons... if importing of wild corals gets more and more scarce (we are in a trend heading that way), then people might actually get smart and want to provide their corals with the best of the best. There is no better way to do this than with larger, more stable tanks, better lighting, but most importantly having actual understanding. Most of the people who are from the Golden Years and LFS Generation mostly still reef like they did then and have some of the most wonderful tanks to show. When the only choice is to grow captive coral, then people will wise up and pay attention to how the best of the best grow stuff and not some trendy shop with photoshopped pictures who posts a lot and/or will shill for manufactures... think Copps over WWC/Vivid. You are already starting to see this with less and less people using LED alone and more adding on T5s or moving away from them all together. My whole idea that this might happen is based on CITES or location bans or other restrictions on wild stuff... if this does not happen, then I have no idea. In any case, when importing slows down or stops completely, there will be huge changes and I hope that the huge change is not people leaving the hobby.

    As time has gone by, larger tanks are still more stable, MH are still the best lights for pure performance, AC pumps that have been around for 3 decades are still the most reliable (askol based) and venturi based skimmers like LifeReef are still better than needlewheels. ...times have changed, but a good book from 1990s can still get you 90% of the way home.

    I derailed the heck out of this thread - sorry Mike. I did type a lot, so I have to let it post, so you can just crap all over one of mine soon.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
    ReefCheif, SkyShark, SynDen and 2 others like this.
  13. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    He started in 2000 and wasn't known widespread until at least 2005. The average reef tank nowadays compared to the average reef tank in 2005 is night and day, since even Sanjay struggled to keep SPS before Randy. Amazing what quality equipment, automation, and the easy dissemination of information the "biocube generation" has been able to accomplish.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using MASC mobile app
     
  14. Andrew_bram

    Andrew_bram Shark M.A.S.C Club Member

    Still wrong this is where he introduced himself to reef central please note the post date as well as how long he has been reef keeping. [​IMG]

    Sent from my MHA-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  15. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    He started his forum on RC when it was pretty new in 2001 - there was no message boarding before this... just emails that The WWM posted answers to. It was an instant success since people had been reading his articles and hearing him speak for probably a decade before this. He wrote prolifically for Advance Aquarist, ReefKeeping and others and most of these articles are still prevalent today, but people mostly do not read them. I was there for this. In these days, Steve Tyree was a great wealth of knowledge too... whereas now he is kind of a clown. If anybody remembers, Steve Weast would also give great talks and information - he had a generational tank.
     
  16. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    I was referring to the first public thing from him I have ever been able to find on the internet, not the day he started his first tank...

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  17. SkyShark

    SkyShark Tuna Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    Doug, that was actually a great write up about the different eras of reef keeping.
    I hope that instead of only having the option of tank raised coral, the industry also includes maricultured coral (this has already been happening in many places). I believe mariculture has the best prospects of doing good and actually help preserve wild reefs since the local community has a stake in it. There are some great examples of this happening already.
    Also, I want to see the communities where our coral originally came from continue to benefit - people talk about culture appropriation, but if our coral only comes from captive tanks, it becomes coral appropriation! Sustainable mariculture is one of the only ways this can happen.
    I know this is controversial, but I don’t think it’s such a bad thing the newest generation doesn’t know all that much beyond the basics of chemistry. The management of the key water parameters has been simplified enough that people really can just follow directions now. I think this is okay because it allows more people to innovate in other ways and build on the knowledge base of the previous generations. I see a lot of parallels to computers/coding here; creating a new computer program or website doesn’t require knowing how the computer itself was built/programmed. Maybe that’s a half assed analogy, but hopefully my point comes across.
     
  18. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    Sky shark, I whole heartedly agree with the mariculture approach being possibly the most sustainable answer. Unfortunately places like Fiji and I do have currently ban the export of ALL coral even mariculture. It’s more of a political thing going on I think as well as a lack of understanding and politicians trying to look good but we are at their mercy. It’s going to take a lot of education to move the political needle which takes money and our hobby is small potatoes. I’m a total tree hugger who wants to protect the environment more than most but i’m Smart enough to realize that lots happens under the umbrella of “environmental protection” that is meaningless. We, as hobbiest, and the industry need to work together to protect the hobby in any way we can! We probably have more knowledge about how the reefs function than many and need to educate as many people about what actually threatens the reefs and our hobby.
     
  19. SkyShark

    SkyShark Tuna Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    Agreed. The hobby dug itself into a hole and we are stuck with a bad image despite many improvements. The problem is also how radically different the impact is depending on location. I think Fiji will get worked out, but it doesn’t bode well for other areas. It’s a hard message to get across that taking coral from the ocean can be done in a way that actually improves reefs (take a particularly colorful fragment of coral from a colony on a reef, grow it in another location where it is tended to by locals, take fragments of that now grown out colony and plant some back on the reef and sell the other fragments).
    Don’t even get me started on the Hawaii fish ban. It’s such silly political posturing. If you want to make a difference, ban all sport fishing and commercial fishing!
     
  20. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    What argument would you make for our hobby? Saying that our hobby is not as bad as another hobby is not a good argument and nobody will listen. Any scientist that gets involved for "the other side" will crush this hobby of people who mostly cheap out and provide less care than they should with unstable habitats and lights that are "cool" but have non-ideal spectrum. There are some folks that take this 100% seriously, but they are few and far between - for most, the hobby is about the hobbyist and not the animals... so it will be easy for a panel employed by any politicians to conclude that the stuff should be left in the ocean. There is not much of an argument to make, unfortunately, beyond the loss of jobs of some locals (which Walt Smith was able to prove is significant in some places).

    I can see why Mari can be really good and if people want to stop wild collection of most things then I am OK with this. I am also OK with needing a certification from an independent agency to be able to buy wild collected stuff - leave it open for zoos, real research and only hobbyists that pass the highest of criterion... basically, make sure that people know what they are doing before a natural reef is impacted in even the slightest way.
     
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