Carbon Dosing?

[miwoodar]

Jon,

I've been very happy with a vodka, sugar, vinegar, RO/DI mix that I've been playing with lately. For supplement, I've been dosing a DIY amino acid and vitamin mix but I would like to replace the latter with an off the shelf version. Do you have any opinions on using zeovit, fauna marin, prodibio, polyplab, pappone, and/or DIY? I would be interested in learning about your opinions on probiotic methods in general.

Thanks!
Mike

 

[fishfanatic]

I tried Prodibio for awhile. I thought it was okay. When I was dosing my corals' colors lightened considerably. I prefer deep, rich coloring on my sps so I stopped using it. I think my tank is better off without Prodibio. I would probably give zeo a try if I had more time for the dosing schedule.

 

[fishfanatic]

woops didn't see I was in Jon's forum. Sorry

 

[Oilman]

I have been using Zeovit for about two months based on the advice of another reefer. The stuff is great. The SPS polyp extension is unreal and all colored up. It seems expensive at first, but you use so little that a small bottle will last a very long time.

What advantages do you see using the vodka, vinegar, sugar & RO/DI combo?

Mark

 

[osprey77]

i started using aquavito fuel with mad results. I have red/pink milli's that i have never seen color in start to show wonderful color in less than a month. Growth has good acceleration too.

 

[mhaith]

I too dose the vodka/vinegar/sugar combo and it has made me feel quite omnipotent as no matter how much I feed, Nitrates/Phosphates stay undetectable. (I know, famous last words!)
I have been using the amino acids from Brightwell and last week I started using the Spongepower from Zeovit and holy cow, I didn't even know my SPS has polyps like that! I've only been using it a week now so I can't attest to the long term and I can't state the reason for the reaction but it IS evident.

 

[miwoodar]

I too dose the vodka/vinegar/sugar combo and it has made me feel quite omnipotent as no matter how much I feed, Nitrates/Phosphates stay undetectable. (I know, famous last words!)
I have been using the amino acids from Brightwell and last week I started using the Spongepower from Zeovit and holy cow, I didn't even know my SPS has polyps like that! I've only been using it a week now so I can't attest to the long term and I can't state the reason for the reaction but it IS evident.

This has been my experience. I've always had good colors, not fantastic TOTM kind of stuff, but definitely good. I've always done so by starving my tank though (I even lost long term yellow tang due to starvation).

In the past 7 weeks, I've been pounding my tank with food while dosing a VSV combo and a DIY amino acid supplement. The SPS colors have gotten slightly better but the fish have gotten FAT(!). Nitrates still ND. Phosphates ND on Salifert (so take it with a grain of salt). I think I am very near the 'maintenance' dose that I've been trying to identify. I'm looking forward to getting some of the proprietary AA's to see what it does to my colors.

Does anyone use zeolitic stones? If so, FM or Zeo brand?

 

[mhaith]

I use 2ml of VSV on a 210. How much do you dose?
Also, what is the DIY amino acid supplement recipe you use? I asked Randy on the Chem forum and he had some question about the purity of DIY Amino acids.
One last thing, do you notice a coral darkening with a lot of AA?

 

[miwoodar]

My VSV is 5ml vodka, 1tspn sugar, 5ml vinegar, and 15ml RO/DI. I'm dosing 2ml/day in a semi-mature 65 gallon tank (few fast growing SPS colonies between 8-12 inches, handful between 2 and 6 inches, a bunch of frags, and a large frogspawn). I started at 3 drops/day then went to 6 drops/day then to 0.5ml/day etc...by week 4 I was at 1ml/day. I stayed there for a couple of weeks then started bumping again. I'm now up to 2ml/day. I've taken a MUCH slower road than most people and my solution is more dilute.

I've put more than 6 months worth of food in my tank since I started all of this. I am floored that my NO3 and PO4 levels are still so low. I actually started this experiment believing it would fail and I would have to return to a nutrient starved Berlin system.

My DIY Amino Acid supplement is...ahem...suspect at best. By RHF's, Mesocosm's, Genetics, or MCSaxmaster's standards, it's a no-go. That's why I want to replace it with an off the shelf product. I'm not really getting any darkening. If I overdose I will see a little extra algae on the glass the next day but that's about it. How do you like the Brightwell AA's? Have you found your tank's maintenance dose? If yes, can you describe?

I've also been doing a DIY bacteria culture kind of like Scoob's at UR (http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/printthread.php?t=211460&pp=40). His thread is pretty entertaining and worth the read even if it's just to catch his candid writing style. My culture is definitely growing some funk! I have a dish with a small rock. Every few days I add a few pellets of food, a few drops of VSV, and a few drops of AA's. I then pour about half of the volume into the tank on a ~nightly basis then refill it. I'm thinking of it more as a food source for the corals though rather than bacteria inocculations since I'm not dosing with any proprietary bacteria sources. So far, I have no reason to suspect my tank to need anything of the sort. Scoob's tank seemed to have the often speculated but never verified 'mono-culture' though (I wouldn't have believed it until I read his thread).

Jon, I hope you're in Ireland drinking a Guiness Red! Please chime in when you get back!

 

[miwoodar]

What advantages do you see using the vodka, vinegar, sugar & RO/DI combo?

1) Much cheaper
2) Many people have shown it to be effective
3) Satisfies my urge to tinker (!!!)
4) I have been a little less than pleased with some of the advice I have read on some of the proprietary sites . (For instance...you must use this entire product line or else you can't possibly be successful with a probiotic system)

 

[mhaith]

I haven't decided if the AAs do anything or not and I have tested going off and on. I am dosing 2 ml/every other day. however I am getting ready to start trying some Zeovit AA I just got.
In fact, I'm not sure what works and what doesn't. I too have color but not crazy TOTM color, but just added 50% more T5 bulbs to bring it up to 950 watts of T5 Madness!
I DO know that a week and a half after I started dosing Grey Goose my bad stuff dropped to ND from .1 and 30.
I switched to the V/S/V due to concerns about monoculture but who knows and should I care?
Despite my constant tinkering, my tank is doing well and I have some colonies that have visible DAILY growth. The only problem (and I can't figure out why) is some diatom growth on the sand around the rock bases.
Thoughts? Solutions?

 

[miwoodar]

Hmmm...growth that looks like diatoms...correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that indicate an overdose on the carbon source? You'll have to take this with a lense against their proprietary system but...

"With sustained overdosing, it is possible that a visible brown or light green bacterial film builds that looks like a diatom bloom. This film usually builds when there is an over dosage."

From the zeo guide regarding zeostart 2 (their carbon source)
Here's a link - http://www.korallen-zucht.de/files/zeoguide_103_english-1.pdf

My blues, reds, purples, and all but one of my greens are great. The green on my cali tort is very pale and that was also one of the reasons for embarking on my experiment (can I call it that?). Nothing in my tank has the zeospur 2 look (the Iwan look) and as of now, I don't have interest in taking things that far. Maybe some day but I dunno.

Right now, I'm mostly trying to decide if I want to add a zeolitic rock to my tank. Do you have a reactor?

 

[mhaith]

I have always had these diatoms and seem simply to be an aesthetic issue but with my parameters being so low, I'm a bit puzzled......

As for the ZEO stuff, I would rather McGyver it. I love using Vodka, Prestone Driveway Heat and Baking Soda than some formalized, High Eurodollar, YOOROPEEAN fancy pants system but I'm not beyond buying a few aspects of it here and there like the Sponge Power. Gotta keep dialin' it in ya know?

I see tanks like Cris' and Luis' and they get it done old school....

I read the Scoob posting and pretty intriguing. Is your culture doing any good do you think? Did you use the same FM stuff?

Got Pictures? Live close to Englewood? I love field trips to see cool tanks!

 

[miwoodar]

As for the ZEO stuff, I would rather McGyver it. I love using Vodka, Prestone Driveway Heat and Baking Soda than some formalized, High Eurodollar, YOOROPEEAN fancy pants system but I'm not beyond buying a few aspects of it here and there like the Sponge Power. Gotta keep dialin' it in ya know?

Yes, I'm with you 100% on this!

I see tanks like Cris' and Luis' and they get it done old school....
Cris has the *best* colors I've ever seen in person and you're right, his tank doesn't use anything like this. His tank is SO mature though...I'm thinking he has plenty of coral growth to offset any amount of food he can put in. Luis was zeo for a while, no? I thought he was and now he isn't. That's all grape vine though. If you are in the loop, I would be curious to know more.

I read the Scoob posting and pretty intriguing. Is your culture doing any good do you think? Did you use the same FM stuff?
I'm not sure if it's doing anything. I would like to think it is though. I'm making my culture with a few pellets of food, a few drops of VSV, and a few drops of AA's. It looks substantially like his did.

Got Pictures? Live close to Englewood? I love field trips to see cool tanks!
Sorry, I keep meaning to take pics of the dish but haven't gotten around to it. I have some updated pics of the tank but haven't gotten around to sorting through them and updating my photobucket account. I'm just southwest of Lucent and 470. The door is always open if you are interested.

 

[mhaith]

Cris has the *best* colors I've ever seen in person and you're right, his tank doesn't use anything like this. His tank is SO mature though...I'm thinking he has plenty of coral growth to offset any amount of food he can put in. Luis was zeo for a while, no? I thought he was and now he isn't. That's all grape vine though. If you are in the loop, I would be curious to know more.

I am far from 'dialed-in' but I am just trying to find the 'superstars' and emulate them as best as possible. I have been fortunate to find some guys that really know what they are doing who have helped me just by showing me their tanks and techniques. So far it seems I can get more from these guys in an hour looking at their tank than I can from the clubs which seem to have too little to do with sharing knowledge and a bit too much focus on well....the drama. (Just one guy's perception and with all due respect I'm new to this)

Come to think of it I think Luis did say he was doing the ZEO thing there for awhile. He gave me some thoughts on the individual components that he likes.
I did pick up the heavy feeding/heavy skimming from both those guys and have modified it for my situation and it appears to be working great. I have personally seen Cris dump what I consider to be a giant amount of food into his tank.

I'm making my culture with a few pellets of food, a few drops of VSV, and a few drops of AA's. It looks substantially like his did.

What bacteria does this grow? Doesn't the ZEO stuff provide a specific marine bacteria? You could be growing botulism for all you know right? (assuming that's a bacteria)

I'm just southwest of Lucent and 470. The door is always open if you are interested.[/QUOTE]

BTW, I took your thought and am backing down on the VSV to 1.5ml and we'll see if the diatoms disappear and other filters can keep the parameters in line.

I would love to see your tank and I'm only about 10 minutes away. I am kinda "unemployed" and weekdays are great for me. Let me know my PM/E-Mail is on the other board.

 

[miwoodar]

It's great to get the advice of those you trust...speaking of which...I think Jon is out having another Guiness. I value any words that come out of Cris' mouth. I have no reason to doubt Luis but I haven't ever cornered him for long enough to take in his mindset.

I saw Cris feed once and believe it or not, I'm feeding about the same amount into my 65. I've fed as much as five cubes in a day (medium pacific blue tang, large flame angel, large 6-line, and a large watchman goby). I literally feed to the point that they stop eating.

It could be botulism for all I know. I hope not! Yes, the proprietary bacteria formulations do provide specific marine bacteria. I've seen descriptions of some of the proprietary blends though and have no reason to believe they aren't in my tank already. I was hoping to get Jon's opinion on this though (third Guiness now?). It is virtually improssible for me to keep up with the reading. I've read a few hundred pages on various sites and that has made me feel confident in my approach. However, the more I learn about probiotic systems the more I realize I don't know and the more I don't know, the more I search and the more I search, the larger the on-deck stack gets. If I weren't watching my tank's cues I would have reached analysis parallysis long ago.

 

[adams0816]

my problem is I like the vodka too..I dont want my corals have to go to rehab-then AA.

 

[fishfanatic]

I recently have had a problem with some of my corals being brown in my tank that are not supposed to be that way so I am going to start dosing vinegar and sugar on my sps tank. I spent all last night reading the Vodka thread and reading about what Zedar is doing in his tank with his own cheaper modified version of zeovit. I believe my tank could definetly use some extra nutrient reduction. Last night I found out that carbon dosing works like this: A carbon source is added to the tank in small amounts daily (ie. vodka, vinegar, or sugar) over time the carbon source feeds bacteria in the water that feed on nitrate and phosphate. Once the bacteria consume the nitrate and phosphate they become "exhausted" and are exported via the protein skimmer. A very strong, good working protein skimmer is need for this method to work appropriately. I do not see any reason for you to try a more expensive bacteria method.
In the first phase of carbon dosing with vodka, vinegar, or sugar you want to strive to get the nutrients in the system very low. Once you notice that your sps' colors are lightened and washed out you move into the second phase. The second phase is where the color tweaking occurs. You start dosing amino acids, and if you desire to, some of the zeovit color enhancing products. Some of the Zeo guys are experimenting dosing with Nitrate powder and Pottasium Chloride to enhance their sps' colors. You can also adjust the amount of carbon source you dose according to the colors of your corals. When you think about it this diy carbon dosing method I am describing is very similar to how the zeovit system works. From what I have read carbon dosing takes a lot of time and patience. It can take almost six months to a year before you get carbon dosing perfected in your own system. I think it will take awhile for this diy method to be accepted. There is not really any substansial results from it yet.

JMO!

 

[mhaith]

Thanks for the clarification from your reading last night as that corresponds with my researching and testing this method for the last few months.

The discussion Mike and I were having was concerning multiple sources of carbon (V/S/V versus just V) to reduce the likelihood of one strain of bacteria overtaking and eliminating all others. Despite those efforts, the growth and addition of bacterial strains is designed to maximize bacteria strain diversity in the tank.

As for substantial results, it appears both Mike and I have discussed those quite clearly in this thread. I am quite satisfied with my substantial yet admittedly antecdotal results.

 

[miwoodar]

Fishfanatic - it looks like you've pretty much nailed the conceptual understanding of how probiotic ULNS systems are supposed to work. Patience is certainly required. Money, maybe. 250 ml of Zeostart 2 is $30 before shipping. A DIY solution like Eric and Flint's is less than $5. (BTW, your parents won't give you a shot of vodka for your tank?) The rocks, well, if they are actually needed (Jon?), we can't really get around paying a company $12 for a $1 bag of stones...on a monthly basis. That is, until someone actually figures out what kind of zeolitic stone is being sold by Zeovit and/or FM. Mesocosm has interest in the stones and has actually posted conceptual nutrient flow diagrams of PO4, NO3, and various elements so I don't want to just throw the stones out as being irrelavent. Many successful ULNS systems do not use rocks though. Olddude's system comes to mind (he uses PolypLab) and Kip's TOTM system (he uses occasional straight vodka). Also, any of the pappione systems (of the Italy's Best! Matured SPS Aquariums thread). The Italy tanks might not count though as I would be tempted to put all of them into a group of 'so mature you cannot have any problems using up all of your input nutrients'...ala Cris Capp's tank. All of these tanks have corals that are so mature that you could literally remove a chunk the size of a volleyball and not know where it came from unless you took it out yourself.

Stonycorals' thread, Let's Talk about Vodka/Sugar Dosing, is definitley a good read. I'm not a full believer in Zedar's method (yet). I'm not commenting on the relative merit of his approach versus mine or someone elses...but I would just like to see more pics of his results. Does he have a build thread that you know of? I've tried to look in his photobucket account but he keeps it locked.