Miracle ich treatment?

Cake_Boss · Jan 9, 2013

I've been reading this thread on RC, http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214. Sounds like a good alternative to copper/hypo. Does anyone have any local experience with it?

I'm interested in this, since I'm about to get all kinds of fish that love ich. I'm particularly interested in what Will/Kris/Virgil have to say about this.

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djkms · Jan 9, 2013

I am personally not familiar with the treatment. At the shop we treat ich with Copper. I will see if Will has any experience with it and report back.

Have you thought about tank transfer method? This will be the next avenue I will try (personally, not through Premier) if ich ever rears its head again during QT.

Andrew_bram · Jan 9, 2013

Re: Miracle ich treatment?

Interesting read. Something else has to kill that stuff

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daverf · Jan 9, 2013

Check this thread out as well. I researched the two quinine meds (this Chloroquine Phosphate and Quinine Sulfate) a lot in my Ich journey, and actually ended up using the QS ("Crypto Pro" is one brand). I did this because couldn't find a place that would overnight CP instead of QS (yeah a poor reason to go with one over another), although apparently Bob Goemans believes that Chloroquine Phosphate is superior and as well the best Ich treatment, period. Fenner also seems to be a huge fan of the quinine meds. The thread below (and others) talk about poor reef tank results, but it seemed to me that more talked about reef safe / success.

Some believe there is "one shot" to kill a given Ich strain in your system (QT or DT) with it. Underdosing allows the Ich population to build resistance to it if it doesn't entirely die off, and a second dose won't work. Obviously not the case with hypo or Copper.

Starting over, I would probably use it as first line of defense in QT. But based on my experience, I would not recommend it in a display tank. You can't measure its levels in the water, and its absorption by sand/rock is poorly understood. Either I underdosed or dosed accurately then had the dose dissipate due to rock/sand, as it quickly cleared up Ich but the Ich returned before the first treatment ended. That said, it didn't cause any other invert or rock die off as far as I could tell.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1791672

Ghosty · Jan 10, 2013

Great info! I'm just about to move ALL my fish into my Hospital/QT to treat ich that showed up on a couple Clowns & a BlueTang this week. I picked up a bottle of Kordon Ich-Attack after reading some RC threads, but maybe I'll try this instead.

daverf · Jan 10, 2013

I would just plan out the display tank eradication, especially if you are using anything whatsoever instead of copper or hypo in QT.

If you move to QT, treat/cure, move back to infested tank, repeated quinine treatments in the future may be necessary but may no longer work against the Ich strain you have in your display (unpredictable). You may need to run fallow.

Ghosty · Jan 10, 2013

I don't trust anything with my DT corals, even the herbal Ick-Attack. Last time I panicked and used Seachem Paraguard, it killed off my prize Toadstool. I'll pay the price for lots of water changes to keep the chemistry in check over the 4-6week period. Even if it's a pain, I wanna do what's best for the fish.

Ich won't survive in my DT with just corals, liverock, & inverts, right? Or can one stage "hide" in the liverock/sand, even past six weeks? Is a month enough?

fiji4118 · Jan 10, 2013

I have used CP many times with good results. I can say that Lions and puffers are not big fans. Tangs do very well. And it is for QT only. I would not put it in a DT. I found that copper power worked with my puffer and angel. And they are typically much more sensitive to copper but I did not want to try CP again. You can get CP from Fishman Chemical. It only comes in Kilo bags from him. I have probably 3/4 of a kg left if someone wants to try it. It did expire in August so not sure what the shelf life really is on this stuff.

jahmic · Jan 10, 2013

Ghosty;216310 said:

Correct...I'd go 6-8 weeks before reintroducing fish to make sure you're safe. I'd err on the side of caution and go for 8 weeks. Some people recommend as many as 10 to be safe, but I think the average life cycle is only 3-4 weeks.

A month is not enough IMO. The ich can lie dormant in a cyst for a few weeks and it only takes one parasite to find a fish and reestablish the cycle in your tank.

daverf · Jan 10, 2013

Ghosty, also maybe check out this thread on running hypo in the display tank. You need to transfer inverts, but this kills two birds with one stone if it works (both DT/fish eradication) and heck, sometimes inverts are easier to catch than fish

. This thread captures hypo runs by 280G Reefman (Andrew) and me. Andrew had a reef tank and had to move the inverts, I only have fish only so just dropped salinity.

http://www.marinecolorado.org/forum...fish-only-display-tank&highlight=hyposalinity

Most tried and true method is fallow tank with QT hypo or copper. Others have not been used as extensively (although they may be more effective). There are no guarantees on any approach, on rare occasions people have reported going fallow/full QT for 3+ months then see a dreaded white spot reappear as soon as they end treatment/fallow run... Have to select a path based on your research/capability/preference and go with it. Good luck!

For what it's worth, Denver Aquarium uses hypo to treat Ich.

Ghosty · Jan 10, 2013

jahmic;216329 said:

Thanks Khalis, I will do at least 6 weeks.

daverf;216336 said:

Thanks Dave, before I read this I actually texted the aquariest whom I'm an assistant for and asked her what they use. She said Formalin, but to ask the Curator this Saturday for sure.

Any problem with doing both Copper (Seachem Cupramin) along with Kordon Ich-Attack in my QT? Possibly too stressful on the fish? How about Hypo, Cu, & Attack, overkill?

"Nuke the site from orbit, that's the only way to be sure."

daverf · Jan 10, 2013

Most guidance I've seen is to never combine treatments. Since a single treatment slowly "kills" everything, the idea is to weaken/kill the Ich faster than the fish (so that the treatment can cease when Ich dies). You'll probably kill already weakened fish if you combine treatments, since by the time you actually see spots a fish is already at an advanced/dangerous infestation stage.

I talked to the Curator (Rob...or at least I've always thought he was the curator...) on/off when I go...run all my fish husbandry questions by him...Super nice guy, by the way....Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what you find out.

fiji4118 · Jan 10, 2013

daverf;216336 said:

Ghosty, also maybe check out this thread on running hypo in the display tank. You need to transfer inverts, but this kills two birds with one stone if it works (both DT/fish eradication) and heck, sometimes inverts are easier to catch than fish

. This thread captures hypo runs by 280G Reefman (Andrew) and me. Andrew had a reef tank and had to move the inverts, I only have fish only so just dropped salinity.

http://www.marinecolorado.org/forum...fish-only-display-tank&highlight=hyposalinity

Most tried and true method is fallow tank with QT hypo or copper. Others have not been used as extensively (although they may be more effective). There are no guarantees on any approach, on rare occasions people have reported going fallow/full QT for 3+ months then see a dreaded white spot reappear as soon as they end treatment/fallow run... Have to select a path based on your research/capability/preference and go with it. Good luck!

For what it's worth, Denver Aquarium uses hypo to treat Ich.

Interesting on the hypo at DA. That was not my understanding. In all cases of ich?

daverf · Jan 10, 2013

I may not be recalling their protocol if Ghosty heard Formalin. I thought curator told me that 30 days hypo is the norm when they are dealing with Ich, but I may not be remembering correctly. Another interesting tidbit, just freshwater dips most of the time for flukes. 3 minutes, they all fall off a fish.

Ghosty · Jan 10, 2013

Yep, Rob the Curator. I'm Aquariest Emily's assistant on Saturdays. I'll let ya know what I find out. Are you a volunteer diver there?

daverf · Jan 10, 2013

No, just go there frequently and get on the staff's nerves with all my noob questions

. I have a DA membership.

Wow, awesome to hear Ghosty. So you are the club connect to DA, that's good to know.

daverf · Jan 10, 2013

Ghosty;216349 said:

If DA knew what was good for their system, they would keep me away from the water. Based on all the fun I have with Ich, I'm starting to think I'm a carrier for it.

master NooB · Jan 10, 2013

I just used Seachem metronidazole for ich that was on my tang about a week ago and the tube had enough to treat my 125 two and a half times and it took every white spot off my tang in two days! My tang also isn't scratching on rocks any more either! I don't know if I just got lucky but it seamed to work well, I'm about a week after the first treatment and haven't seen any new signs of it coming back... I also didn't notice any negative affects towards any of my corrals or my inverts... It was $11 so worth a shot