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Oldschool reef!

Discussion in 'General Reefkeeping Discussion' started by Dr.DiSilicate, Jun 16, 2018.

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  1. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

    A friend posted this link on another forum. I think it’s well worth a look. Much larger tank than most of us will ever be able to have but the philosophy, although from 2002, is still valid, simple, solid and proven. All of the decisions made during this build are well thought out and based on solid proven long term success.

    http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_philosophy.htm
     
  2. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

  3. halmus

    halmus Prawn M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. M.A.S.C Secretary

    One of my favorite reefs of all time. The read through his webpage is well worth it.

    I think he ended up turning that into a cold-water system. There was (maybe still is) a company up in Oregon that caters to the cold water critters. Don’t think he was affiliated with them though.

    Anyway, I love just about everything about this former system.
     
    TheRealChrisBrown likes this.
  4. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    Started 2003 using corals from 2001 and additional added. The pics are several years in and not dated.

    Otherwise very nice tank, but not terribly efficient for these days. If this were retrofitted to replace the closed loop with DC powerheads and replace some or all of the halides with radions or hydras but keep the T5, this would be a beast of a tank and be just as effective with much less energy use.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using MASC mobile app
     
  5. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    Weast and Copps are/were role models of mine. Copps has a new thread on RC if you want to read - it is in the SPS forum and a wealth of knowledge. His setup is very similar to this one both in scale, approach and equipment. These guys grew in this stuff in about three years - yes, that kind of growth is possible with the best equipment.

    Speaking of old school, believe it or not, Steven Tyree used to be a role model and was really helpful to this hobby before (and in the early) internet days. He used to be really good even though it might be hard to see now.
     
    timnem70 likes this.
  6. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    Also of note, his FAQ is grossly incorrect on energy costs. I ran the numbers and for his pumps and tank lighting alone that is $650 a month on energy use. Once you add in all the heaters, chillers, and auxiliary equipment, it's probably well above $800.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using MASC mobile app
     
  7. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    Zombie - these type of posts and opinions are why the hobby is going to die. You could not have a tank like this with Radions or Hydras and you lack the breath and depth of experience to know that - it is partially because of the best-of-breed lights that it exists and he had the growth and stability that he had. The preference of catering to the hobbyist instead of the coral is a bad path. The question should always be "what can I do that is best for the coral," and not "what is the cheapest for me that will just keep the coral alive." What you should be taking from this thread is what you need to do provide the absolute best for the animals and corals, not to second guess electricity numbers or their approach to moving water. You could have a tank like Dr. Joshi's, which is very nice but not on the same level as this one or John's. Dr. Joshi will flat out tell you that his tank was better before he took the Radions, but he keeps them for a myriad of other reasons - massive die off of deep waters, millepora and issues with some shadowing are all things that he mentions when you talk with him. His tank is about as good as you can hope to have, but even he will tell you that it is 75-80% of what it could be where not all that used to thrive will anymore, but enough does to make him happy. Whatever you think of the Radions, he saves no money with them and they cost more to replace than bulbs. I respect Dr. Joshi immensely for all of the work that he did on lighting a deacde+ ago, his willingness to educate/share as well as his brutal openness and honesty, but he took a bit of a hit to me since he knows beyond a doubt that what he is doing is not the best thing for his corals and he does it anyway.

    I am not a CL fan, so if you want to tell me that Tunze or MP60 might be the way to go, I will listen... but if you have ever seen a MP60 flounder on a huge tank, then you might understand that CLs still do have their places especially combined with an Oceans Motion or the like. Flow pumps do not scale very well on larger stuff, but you have to have larger stuff to know this. DC Pumps are like toys compared to AmpMaster or the larger Sequences or LifeGuards... again, have to have used them to know.

    On another note, JB and Ed can be found on the national boards if you want to follow some current people who will still post some. JB is on a new no-water-change kick that I want to see how it turns out in 4-5 years.
     
    JuanGutz likes this.
  8. Dr.DiSilicate

    Dr.DiSilicate Kraken M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. B.O.D. Member-at-Large

     
    TheRealChrisBrown likes this.
  9. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    I have seen enough side by side tests and testimony from very experienced reefers like Sanjay, Mike Paletta, Tyree, Cornbread, Jason Fox, Neptune Systems, BRS, to name a few that have all side by side tested LED against MH and have all switched to t5 LED hybrid, MH LED hybrid, or strictly LED because the growth and color difference was unnoticeable in side by side tests but the energy use was cut in half, acclimation was made easier, chillers were no longer needed, and they just look better. Not to mention the fact that this increased energy use not only costs the reefer unnecessary money but also contributed to global CO2 levels, which harms coral reefs. There will always be older holdouts with the "if it ain't broke dont fix it" or "I dont trust new technology" mentalities, but to say that MH is anything more than marginally better than LEDs is just ignorant at this point since study after study has shown them to be nearly identical at the same PAR output and LEDs being significantly better at the same energy consumption.

    These types of posts are not why the "hobby is going to die". These types of technological advances are why the average person who never would have considered a reef tank before can actually be successful right off the bat, which gets more people into the hobby and more to stay in it.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using MASC mobile app
     
  10. zombie

    zombie Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    You and I may never see eye to eye on this. My responses have been debating your and jdas assertions that millennials AKA the "biocube generation" have no idea what they are doing and "old school" reefers are doing everything right. IMO the "biocube generation" takes risks that dont always pan out and the "old school" reefers have the benefit of having already failed over and over again in the past and are sticking with a system that is far from ideal but has been stable so they dont want it to change. Both ideologies have different benefits and it's also comparing apples to oranges because the "biocube generation" has been in for less than a decade vs 20+ years of old school reefers. If you compare the experience of reefers first 5-10 years now to those same experiences 20 years ago, the difference is night and day.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using MASC mobile app
     
  11. jda123

    jda123 Tuna M.A.S.C Club Member

    How would you have any idea about most of this? You were not around. Don't feel like you should pay attention to people who were... the same people who have tanks that you will probably never have at their level. If you are still around in a decade, then you might have wandered into enough breath and depth of experience to look back on that post and know that it is purely bunk. This all reminds me of Robin Williams sitting by the lake explaining to Matt Damon about how he does not know crap about anything since he never experienced any of it and just read about it.

    You are welcome to come over and take a look at what I have done in my own home. Then, if you can duplicate those same results with LEDs, then you will be THE FIRST ONE ON THE PLANET. If you want to tell me that you like other things about them and that you use them because of this, then fine (this is where Dr. Joshi and Mike Palletta's new tank are at)... but do not tell me that they produce nearly the same results with not noticeable side by side tests. You either are just being stubborn or are not paying attention - have you ever noticed how most of the BRS lighting videos start off with a statement along the lines of "if pure performance is what you are after, then Metal Halide cannot be beaten?" Dr. Joshi has acutely pointed out that he spends just as many watts on his panels than he did on his Metal Halide... no chiller now, but the heaters run more... electric is a total push. You are just seeing what you want to see.

    Pay attention to Dana Riddle's talk at MACNA later this year. They are finally able to quantify quality as a component of lighting... and guess what... the people who always knew which ones were better are right. They did not need 50k worth of equipment to do this, they could tell based on their experience. I have only had a preview of what is to come, but it will pretty much sum up what the best already know. It might shock those who watch TV videos or believe what manufactures have written, but it shouldn't if those people were paying attention.

    Any tank started with live rock a decade ago is better off in the first five years than any tank started with dry/dead rock today. This is hard to argue. Mike Palletta summed it up pretty well here and he has the experience to know. Most new hobbyists do not even last 5 years anymore whereas it was quite common back then.
    https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

    I have no doubt that you think some of these things, but they are not right. You are not right. It is all out there in front of you to see if you want... but you have to want to. Life is all about the details and the bad asses get and understand the nuance that normal people cannot see. You can be better than normal if you choose to, but you are not there yet.

    I do not consider you a biocube generation person... more of the BRS Generation. The Biocube generation is the first one where people started to choose convenience over husbandry... or themselves over the inhabitants.

    Do not think that I am not acutely aware that the energy that it takes to power my reef can also damage them in nature. I am a responsible adult and spent a good amount of money of Solar panels for the reef and my hot tub - neither of these can be even close to excused as necessary. This cost a lot of money - more than what I spent on all of my college. It is important to me.

    This is neither here nor there, but a response from Tom to these same type of thread a number of years ago. He thought that he had a wide breath and depth of experience. I made him so mad that he dug in and he truly started to see what I am saying. He set up his new tank with MH as the primary driver and had one of the best tanks around for a while. He did not like my classifcation of the BioCube generation either - he thought that I said BioCide, which is different. The only difference here is that Tom is not an entitled millennial, which I can presume is at root for some of this.
     
    JuanGutz and TheRealChrisBrown like this.
  12. MuralReef

    MuralReef Shark Staff Member M.A.S.C Club Member M.A.S.C. B.O.D. MASC Vice-President

    Locking per OP request.
     

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