PH befuddlement

[SynDen]

So have somewhat of a quandary with my ph lately. I recently added a co2 scrubber to my skimmer to combat my consistently low ph. Before adding this my ph range was generally around 7.8-7.6, its rise and fall was fairly predictable, with it rising slightly when main lights came on and dropping when they went off and fuge light was on.

Once I added the scrubber the ph now ranges from 7.8-8.2, which is within an acceptable range, but the range is now much larger then before, which I think might have some of my corals a bit perturbed as I am not seeing quite as good of polyp extension I was before.
On top of this the rise and fall of the ph has me scratching my head. When my lights turn on around 8am the ph begins to fall and continues to through most of the day and bottoms out between the time of 5pm-midnight, generally bottoming out around 7.8. At about midnight it begins to climb back up to 8.2 until my main light come back on around 8am again.

My DT light schedule is set to adjust seasonally but generally the blues run from 8am-8pm and all the dt lights are on from 11am-4pm. The fuge lights run from 5pm-8am

The only thing I add to the tank is Kalwasser via my ato

At least for now the ph range is more in an acceptable range, and dont think this is to serious of an issue, but this shift in the rise and fall has me scratching my head a bit trying to figure why its *** backwards of what I would expect. Any one got any ideas?

 

[sethsolomon]

What algae are you running in your refugium? And with what light?

 

[FinsUp]

Where's your Alk at? Is it stable there?

Also, what about CO2 changes in your house? Windows closed a lot? Circulation changes around the tank?

 

[SynDen]

What algae are you running in your refugium? And with what light?

Running red dragon, red gracilaria algae, and some other vine that showed up as a hitchhiker. And lights are 2 jbj macro grow lights.

Where's your Alk at? Is it stable there?

Also, what about CO2 changes in your house? Windows closed a lot? Circulation changes around the tank?

Alk has been fairly stable around 7.0. although my tank has been using a bit more of it lately so have been increasing the kalk a bit to keep it stable.
Always open the windows whenever possible around the house especially the one next to the tank, and keep fans under the stand to keep air circulating, but never seems to make much difference. Although I do live right off capital hill so I am beginning to think that the average co2 levels even outdoors around here are fairly high.

 

[sethsolomon]

Running red dragon, red gracilaria algae, and some other vine that showed up as a hitchhiker. And lights are 2 jbj macro grow lights.

A light change might make it grow faster and help with the ph shift.

I recommend http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-100...ght-Bulb-BA21-16050OMF-12DE26-1U100/205054836 and http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-150-Watt-Incandescent-Clamp-Light-CE-300PDQ/100354511

 

[FinsUp]

Running red dragon, red gracilaria algae, and some other vine that showed up as a hitchhiker. And lights are 2 jbj macro grow lights.



Alk has been fairly stable around 7.0. although my tank has been using a bit more of it lately so have been increasing the kalk a bit to keep it stable.
Always open the windows whenever possible around the house especially the one next to the tank, and keep fans under the stand to keep air circulating, but never seems to make much difference. Although I do live right off capital hill so I am beginning to think that the average co2 levels even outdoors around here are fairly high.

You're within range on alk, but at the very bottom of it. I'd slowly raise it to about 8 or 9 if you can, and see whether that helps narrow down your ph range. Keep an eye on your calcium levels, too. Not that calcium affects PH, but ca typically changes when you change your alk. It's like a teeter totter kind of thing - low alk & high ca, or low ca & high alk. Naturally, the best thing is to find that middle ground/pivot point.

Side note: If you get into the ca-alk battle and find that you're dosing lots of ca and the levels still won't come up, try checking mag. Low mag levels can keep your ca levels low (don't ask me why - it's just something I fought with until someone told me about mag).

 

[SynDen]

A light change might make it grow faster and help with the ph shift.

I recommend http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-100...ght-Bulb-BA21-16050OMF-12DE26-1U100/205054836 and http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-150-Watt-Incandescent-Clamp-Light-CE-300PDQ/100354511

Haha well ill check them, although I put those JBJs on about 3 months ago and things have been growing like crazy under them, especially the green vine. Growing so much in fact that every 2 weeks or so I have to pull out big chunks of it or it overgrows the others in a hurry. Before I put those JBJ lights in I couldn't get anything to grow in the fuge for very long and so far have been pretty happy with them.

You're within range on alk, but at the very bottom of it. I'd slowly raise it to about 8 or 9 if you can, and see whether that helps narrow down your ph range. Keep an eye on your calcium levels, too. Not that calcium affects PH, but ca typically changes when you change your alk. It's like a teeter totter kind of thing - low alk & high ca, or low ca & high alk. Naturally, the best thing is to find that middle ground/pivot point.

Side note: If you get into the ca-alk battle and find that you're dosing lots of ca and the levels still won't come up, try checking mag. Low mag levels can keep your ca levels low (don't ask me why - it's just something I fought with until someone told me about mag).

Ya I know I keep it in the lower range. I use to run it quite a bit higher around the 9 range, but things never seemed that happy, so have made an effort to keep it closer to NSW levels between 7-8. Ever since keeping it in this range, which has been a bit of a struggle with the horrible kent salt, the colors and polyps look the best they ever have. Recently too the growth on most of my sps has been fairly explosive which has been a bit challenging to keep stable since they continue to eat up the alk and calc at a fairly quick rate. So far I have been able to keep the alk fairly steady and calc steady at around 400. And my mag sitting just under 1400 range and it hasnt moved much in sometime.
I will try pushing my alk up a bit more closer to 7.5-8 range and see if that helps at all

 

[sethsolomon]

Haha well ill check them, although I put those JBJs on about 3 months ago and things have been growing like crazy under them, especially the green vine. Growing so much in fact that every 2 weeks or so I have to pull out big chunks of it or it overgrows the others in a hurry. Before I put those JBJ lights in I couldn't get anything to grow in the fuge for very long and so far have been pretty happy with them.

Fair enough. Just tossing ideas out there.

 

[SynDen]

Fair enough. Just tossing ideas out there.

Yep certainly appreciate the ideas, keep'em coming, but maybe you can see why I am scratching my head trying to figure out what is going on here

 

[FinsUp]

It sounds like you've got everything fairly well dialed in. I think just a minor adjustment on something (perhaps the alk, perhaps not) is all that's needed. But like you said, it's not too big of an issue since it's still within range. I certainly wouldn't want to send everything out of whack chasing ph. If you don't see polyp extension come back into line soon, it might not be ph swings at all.
Certainly very curious.

 

[sethsolomon]

Another idea would be running a tiny amount of ozone in your skimmer.

The idea being the 03 breaking down and binding with the Co2 in the water. It also will convert the ferric iron in your water to ferrous iron which is easier to uptake by organisms. So theoretically this would also help with macro growth.


This would be worth a try if someone has an ozoner you could borrow to try out. I would say max 0.1mg of ozone per hour per gallon would be an appropriate level to help.

Here are some intense articles on it.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php#17
​http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/rhf/index.php

Note: This is mainly a theoretical idea for removing the excess co2. By no means should you go out and buy a ozoner. If you can borrow one it might be worth a shot.

 

[Walter White]

I'd just leave it alone. It's in range, the tank will find its own equilibrium and be perfectly fine as long as everything else is in check. My old tank hovered around 7.6-7.9 and was great. The tank I have now is always between 8.1-8.4 but I don't do anything different except for the fact that I dose the new tank far less than the old which is completely counter intuitive for what you would think in terms of which one should be higher.

 

[Walter White]

Also I ran the old tank with alk between 9-10. I keep the new one between 7-8. So again you'd think it should be the other way around. Just goes to show why you shouldn't chase pH.

 

[sethsolomon]

Also I ran the old tank with alk between 9-10. I keep the new one between 7-8. So again you'd think it should be the other way around. Just goes to show why you shouldn't chase pH.

Truth.

 

[FinsUp]

Also I ran the old tank with alk between 9-10. I keep the new one between 7-8. So again you'd think it should be the other way around. Just goes to show why you shouldn't chase pH.

+10.

I think it's just a question of finding a reason for the reduced polyp extension before it becomes a real issue.

I love how tuned in to your tank you are, BTW, that you notice that kind of detail. Many folks are almost oblivious to their tanks, and then they wonder why their tank crashes 'without giving them any warning'.

 

[SynDen]

+10.

I think it's just a question of finding a reason for the reduced polyp extension before it becomes a real issue.

I love how tuned in to your tank you are, BTW, that you notice that kind of detail. Many folks are almost oblivious to their tanks, and then they wonder why their tank crashes 'without giving them any warning'.

Thanks. Ya agree that I don't want to chase it, but just trying to look for some understanding into its peculiar behavior. Honestly as I am planning the big tank in my basement, one of the components I would like to achieve is a zero water change system. In order to pull this off I am trying to gain a much deeper understanding of how all the various nutrients interact with one another and be able to better keep them in-line over the long term.

 

[FinsUp]

I like the theory of not needing to do water changes, but I figured that the amount of testing and dosing that would need to happen because you aren't putting new saltwater into the system would be kind of overwhelming. There are so many things other than salt in salt basically. Then there's the whole issue of how to remove detritus and whatnot, if you're not doing water changes and vacuuming that stuff out.

If you do go this route, please post a thread on it so I can follow along. I'm really interested in this.

 

[SynDen]

Ya I know it is certainly going to be a challenge, but I like chalenges
The build link that Seth posted for me the other day is basically right along the path of what I would like to achieve. So needless to say I will be studying his system and methods very intensely
http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/large-aquariums-180g/138700-glennfs-300-gallon-dsr-reef-11.html

 

[jda123]

Air your house out. If it has been, or is, on a regular basis, then unplug your CO2 probe and never plug it back in again... breathe easy. Keep your alk at NSW levels, or a bit better, and let the buffering capability of calcium carbonate do it's job, if it needs to... it is better at it than any of us ever will be.

 

[ayaws]

I'm curious how you're tracking it. Here's a graph over the last 5 days (7 since last WC) with my Apex. Seems to do pretty much the same thing every day which makes me (and the tank's inhabitants) happy.

[attachment=68714:name]

It may not be 100% right but it's rock-solid stable and has been. The only thing it gets (175G total volume) is a 15G weekly WC and daily dosing of Seachem's 2-part. 47.5ml over 24 hours of each. As I've added additional corals, I've had to adjust that.

I'm definitely not the oldest, most experienced, or best reefer by a long shot but have had luck doing a few things:
Aim for stability. Don't aggressively chase metrics.
Spend the money on good stuff: this is an expensive hobby. In my experience, when I've cheaped out I've had problems and ended up buying high-end later.
Go slow (no definition needed)
Only add what can be tested. (Although I'm adding AcroPower right now against this rule but it 'seems' fine.)