Seeking SPS advice

[MonkeyMan]

Hey not sure where to put this lengthy post so here goes nothing.

I have been having a bit of a problem keeping SPS. Typically goes something like this… Get a new frag and it does well for 3-4 weeks. It starts to suffer from what appears to be burnt tips. Its always from the tips down. I have seen this happen too many times then I care to admit. After each time I would dig and try to figure out why by asking the LFS (Aquatic Art) to sending out ICP tests to multiple places hopeful for a smoking gun all to get no conclusive answer.

I have manually tested ALK daily (hanna checker) before work for a couple months to the point that I decided to get a trident. My normal daily swing over an average 24hrs is roughly .5 dkh.

I am at a loss and have been contemplating rebooting the system thinking it might be a bacterial issue. That seems extreme as I am curtain the issue is with my reef keeping but not sure where.

At this point I am looking some advice from someone you has had success with SPS. These failures are stressful but at the same time they are pushing me forward as figuring this out and keeping even simple SPS has become a goal.

As I know it will probably be asked my current parameters
Alk: 8.05 dkh
Ca: 440 ppm
Mg: 1290 ppm
Temp: 77.3-78.3
Ph: 7.95 - 8.25 Daily swing
No3: 3ppm (Nyos)
PO4: .09ppm (Hanna checker ultra low)
Specific Gravity: 1.026 (tropic marine hydrometer)

Tank is a 65gal bare bottom that has been in its current position for about 1.5yrs.

Thanks!

 

[Terry Fox]

Sounds like burning. Have you tried putting them lower in the tank? Do they turn colors before or as they die back? How quick once they start to die do they go. Does the flesh just fall off all at once or is it patchy? Do they turn white first.
I would also check the water temp with something different than you normally use.
Do you dose?

 

[SynDen]

What kind of lights are you running, and have you done any par readings to see what kind of par you are getting in different spots of the tank.
You said you had ICP results. Mind sharing those too
You're using a hydrometer? Those things are pure junk. I would highly recommend investing in a digital refractor if you can, or at the very least a regular refractometer. I'd be willing to bet that your salinity is no where near what that hydrometer is telling you it is

 

[MonkeyMan]

What kind of lights are you running, and have you done any par readings to see what kind of par you are getting in different spots of the tank.
You said you had ICP results. Mind sharing those too
You're using a hydrometer? Those things are pure junk. I would highly recommend investing in a digital refractor if you can, or at the very least a regular refractometer. I'd be willing to bet that your salinity is no where near what that hydrometer is telling you it is

Thanks for the response.

Lights are two XR15 G5 blues run currently at 80%. Photo the below is them at 100%. I also have 2 36" T5s Blue + over the system these are not running at the moment but add 75 par across the board from when I took the measurements. Photo below is well over a year old and the tank is currently covered in coralline algae.

I assume you are thinking of the classic swing arm hydrometer. I agree those are crap used one back in 2012 and found that out quickly. I am using this https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/high-precision-hydrometer-tropic-marin.html. I have used refractometers in the past and it just doesn't suit my eyes. I agree on digital.

Triton ICP from July. https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/115718
ICP-Analysis website is currently being odd and I cannot login but the results were similar.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Sounds like burning. Have you tried putting them lower in the tank? Do they turn colors before or as they die back? How quick once they start to die do they go. Does the flesh just fall off all at once or is it patchy? Do they turn white first.
I would also check the water temp with something different than you normally use.
Do you dose?

My recent attempt was a Green Stylophora I put it at the bottom of the tank thinking this would help. Below is the coral in its current state. It is acting differently but still the trend is the same. The green slimmer is probably my best example as I have tried it 3 times. Each time it starts to fade and then tissues starts to recede. Algae begins to grow on the tips and its a downward spiral from there over a month.

I have used my two thermoworks professional cooking thermometers to verify temp. They verified the apex's readings.

I am dosing is BRS 2 part. 30ml of Soda Ash. 20ml of Calcium. Water changes are weekly @ 5 gallons of red sea blue bucket.

 

[ReefCheif]

Just a quick look at your ICP shows your Iodine (I) is bottomed out. I know people are scared of iodine, but this is essential to keep in range for the health of SPS corals.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Just a quick look at your ICP shows your Iodine (I) is bottomed out. I know people are scared of iodine, but this is essential to keep in range for the health of SPS corals.

Any supplement you would suggest?

 

[Terry Fox]

I'm looking at your coral and after 3-4 minutes of studying the only thing I can figure is light or chemical burn. I suspect high phosphate because of the brown algae attacking the dead parts of your coral. When mine die the skeleton stays white. I am no guru but I have been reefing over 40 years somewhat semi successfully and What you have looks like a burn of some kind. Do you have roaming critters or coral with-in 6 inches that might reach out and sting it. Hollywood stunner could easily get it from 6 inches.

 

[Terry Fox]

The iodine should be replaced by water changes or 2 part dosing, iodide as well.

 

[jda123]

Burnt tips are generally one of two things... driving N and P too low with chemicals while having too much alk, or having too high of LED lighting.

When you drive N and P too low with chemicals, calcification increases and the skeleton can grow faster than tissue can get made to cover it when N and/or P are limiting for organic growth. This is easy to determine... if the coral is not growing, then this is not it. Also, with N over .05 (need ICP to determine) or P at even 1 PPB on Hannah Ultra Low and with alk under 7, then this is not an issue either.

The other thing is too much PAR from LEDs. You cannot just run 400-1000 PAR with Radions like you could with T5 or Halides. You might be able to if you get there SLOWLY.

My guess is that it is the second thing. I would let the T5s run for 9-10 hours and do the heavy lifting and then use the Radions to supplement them at low settings and see how that goes.

I did not read the ICP since I find them to mostly be noise and people chase things that do not matter too much, but if you are low on iodine, then just change some water or get a reef idodate/iodide supplement. Changing water is the cheapest and easiest thing to do for most things.

 

[MonkeyMan]

I have 1.5" Galaxia frag about 5" from the frag shown above.

I recently was battling a little GHA. Decided to get a refugium online with cheato. The cheato has taken over its place in the sump over the last couple months and the GHA in the display is gone. Only other algae I am battling is bubble algae.

I'm looking at your coral and after 3-4 minutes of studying the only thing I can figure is light or chemical burn. I suspect high phosphate because of the brown algae attacking the dead parts of your coral. When mine die the skeleton stays white. I am no guru but I have been reefing over 40 years somewhat semi successfully and What you have looks like a burn of some kind. Do you have roaming critters or coral with-in 6 inches that might reach out and sting it. Hollywood stunner could easily get it from 6 inches.

I have a 1.5" frag of galaxia about 5" from the frag shown in the picture. Other than an urchin, snails and a shrimp nothing that I am aware of. I have checked the tank in the middle of the night thinking something unwanted was in the system but found nothing.

Digging back in my phone I have found this extreme example.

 

[MonkeyMan]

Burnt tips are generally one of two things... driving N and P too low with chemicals while having too much alk, or having too high of LED lighting.

When you drive N and P too low with chemicals, calcification increases and the skeleton can grow faster than tissue can get made to cover it when N and/or P are limiting for organic growth. This is easy to determine... if the coral is not growing, then this is not it. Also, with N over .05 (need ICP to determine) or P at even 1 PPB on Hannah Ultra Low and with alk under 7, then this is not an issue either.

The other thing is too much PAR from LEDs. You cannot just run 400-1000 PAR with Radions like you could with T5 or Halides. You might be able to if you get there SLOWLY.

My guess is that it is the second thing. I would let the T5s run for 9-10 hours and do the heavy lifting and then use the Radions to supplement them at low settings and see how that goes.

I did not read the ICP since I find them to mostly be noise and people chase things that do not matter too much, but if you are low on iodine, then just change some water or get a reef idodate/iodide supplement. Changing water is the cheapest and easiest thing to do for most things.

This is interesting. Never thought of alk burn in this sense. In the 3-4weeks before things start going down hill I see no growth. Your idea with the T5s is interesting and one that I can easily implement. The retro fit T5s were there as an added boost/fill but have been off since last January.

Water changes are 5 gallons weekly. I imagine this Iodine is low because a couple months before this reading I broke my leg and it made water changes a challenge for a period of time. I plan on getting another ICP test after Thanksgiving as the one above is from July.

I have never used anything to chemically lower NO3 or PO4 in this system. There was a point in the past (8+ months ago) where I was dosing both and feeding heavily to get from being bottomed out. I have recently (2 months ago) added cheato in my sump because of a small GHA issue. That GHA issue is now gone and the cheato is taking over its section in the sump.

 

[jda123]

Honestly, I would not worry about iodine. If you are changing water even semi frequently, then big 3 are about all that you need to worry about. I will dose some iron since I do grow a lot of chaeto, but that is about all besides a CaRx and some water changes.

I am not a pro on BB or dry/dead rock tanks nor do I care for LED only on my acropora, so I am not going to be much help - I am 100% a sand and real live rock guy and use MH. I do outline my methods to keep acropora, and some other SPS, below, but it might not apply much to your situation. If you want to browse and have questions, then hollar. Regardless of what anybody thinks of my methods, I do keep acropora alive. I also did a one year SPS build on here that is also linked below - this tank is out of my hands now, but should be doing OK still.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/jdas-240g-acropora-rebuild.747041/
https://www.marinecolorado.org/threads/jda-build-off-competition-entry-60g-mbp-s-cube.27451/

 

[MonkeyMan]

Honestly, I would not worry about iodine. If you are changing water even semi frequently, then big 3 are about all that you need to worry about. I will dose some iron since I do grow a lot of chaeto, but that is about all besides a CaRx and some water changes.

I am not a pro on BB or dry/dead rock tanks nor do I care for LED only on my acropora, so I am not going to be much help - I am 100% a sand and real live rock guy and use MH. I do outline my methods to keep acropora, and some other SPS, below, but it might not apply much to your situation. If you want to browse and have questions, then hollar. Regardless of what anybody thinks of my methods, I do keep acropora alive. I also did a one year SPS build on here that is also linked below - this tank is out of my hands now, but should be doing OK still.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/jdas-240g-acropora-rebuild.747041/
https://www.marinecolorado.org/threads/jda-build-off-competition-entry-60g-mbp-s-cube.27451/

Thank you! I am certain to have questions.