Yet another "Ich" question!

[ShelbyJK500]

I know, I know..."use the search button". I've read my eyes to exhaustion on the topic over the past months just for preparedness. I'm just wanting to get some first hand, experienced hobbiest's opinions on the topic. More specifically, two questions.

1) Is this just a parasite that can be completely killed or "died" off? I've read so much of people saying it's always present and with stress or immune system issues fish have an "outbreak." That doesn't seem plausible to me if it is a parasite requiring a host. However, some parasites can live seemingly forever without a host, in dormancy?!? I'm no marine biologist though.

2) If one fish in a tank/system shows or develops ich, but the other fish do not show any signs, what's the diagnosis?? Are all fish "infected" but some just have higher immunity to the parasite? I.E. - tangs being more prone to it?? This question becomes even more pertinent when considering LFS tanks are usually connected. So if a fish at one end of a row of tanks has ich, do the fish at the other end?? What do you do with a fish that has been "exposed" but shows no signs??


My patience has already worn thin with the fish side of this hobby. Strange concept in a marine aquarium club! The coral side has been fairly straight forward to me. I've had great success so far BUT the fish side is kicking my arse, and I just started?? How can some people never have an issue for years with tons of fish, no QT, etc...and I'm having so many issues right off the bat doing it slowly and with dedicated QT?!? Is it the initial livestock quality that plays the biggest role?

Seriously worn thin....

 

[jahmic]

1. Ich is typically difficult to eradicate from an established tank due to the life cycle of the parasite. It will attach to and feed on the fish for several days, then fall into the substrate before going into a capsule and attaching itself to a surface. This stage lasts 2-4 weeks (higher temps create a faster cycle) and during that time the parasite isn't susceptible to treatment. While in that capsule, the single parasite divides into 100s and hundreds more, and the capsule eventually breaks open. They parasite is now in a free swimming stage and this is the only time they are susceptible to treatment. It will look for a fish to feed on, and usually needs to find one within 24hrs or it dies. Once it attaches, it encapsulates again (not susceptible to treatment again), feeds on the fish...and the cycle repeats.

The problem is that once the parasite is off the fish and you don't see it anymore, it can still be in the tank. And even one of those parasites can keep a low grade infestation going in the tank if it finds a host and is able to replicate. The only sure way to remove ich from a display tank IMO is to remove all fish for 8 weeks AND treat the tank, even without the fish in there.

2. This is also why it is so tough to eradicate. Even if you don't see ich on a fish, it could still be infected and carrying parasites. The slime coat of a healthy fish can protect it from visible infestation just about everywhere...except the gills, which remain unprotected. This is why a seemingly healthy fish can 'suddenly die'; repeat infestation in the gills can go unseen for months and causes damage to the tissue.

A fish that has been exposed and doesn't look infected needs to be treated. In all likelihood it's infected in the gills and will just perpetuate the parasite's cycle.

And yes, when you see a fish in one tank at the store that has ich, if multiple tanks are sumped together, you might as well assume that all the tanks are infected. Even if the tanks aren't connected, you still run the risk of cross contaminantion...this is why its important to watch out for lfs employees that share nets between tanks.

All that being said, its not impossible. I've fought it plenty in the past, and last winter saved 9 out of 12 fish that arrived at my door with ich after the overnight package took 3 days to get here.

One trick that's helped me kill off ich is crushing metronizadole into the food...this gives you one more stage to target the parasite as it feeds on the fish and is resistant to in-tank treatments.

Good luck! It's a headache, but can be dealt with.

 

[phillipj2]

I have delt with ich and velvet. This is not fun. Doing a salinity drop only killed the fish faster. I found the only way is to remove all the fish, put them in a quarenteen and copper or if their angles medicate. For 12 weeks minimal. This way your display ich has nothing to feed on and the fish will be healthy. I'm not going to lie ich has knocked me out of the hobby twice. So like anything else I won't ever make the same mistakes.

 

[andyrm66]

Hottly debated topic. IMO, you can get rid of Ich, I've had fish that never had a whitespot for 3+ years, intro a tang, bam, everybody has it in 3 days. Off to the QT, cupramine for 8 weeks, tank fallow for 11. Everybody back in. No sign and its been a month or two. I did lose an angel and a blenny. THey blenny was never doing good in the copper, the angel showed no signs of stress, just up and died overnight. If I ever do angels again, its going hypo. If you go to the trouble I did, NOTHING, NOTHING can enter you dt. This means all new corals, crabs, fish snails LR get QT for 10 weeks min. Yes its a pain, but all my fish getting ick in 3 days was a pain as well.

 

[ShelbyJK500]

Thanks a ton for the great input fellas!! Much appreciated.

Lost my entire post a minute ago...oh well.

Long story short, my flame angel was all but dead yesterday. Was actually laying on the bottom of the tank last night completely without color (looked bleached). I had added the second/final dose of cupramine to the tank after a water change when this was going on. This morning, flame looked the same but was still alive and no longer laying on the bottom. My blueface decided he wasn't going to eat either.

Fully expected to come home to at least one dead angel. To my surprise, they looked like nothing had ever happened! The flame only had a couple spots on him, completely colored up, and both ate like pigs?!? Is this the copper "kicking in" or did I just get lucky with timing and the trophonts had fallen off?? Either way, glad it's going in the right direction it seems.

Oh, I had already started copper when I saw this technique that seems to be gaining a fan-base. If it works, seems pretty cool. There is no way around stressing the fish during any of this stuff, so this might be the easiest as there are no chemical treatments going on.

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/3daytransfer.html

 

[jahmic]

Glad to hear you've seen some improvement. I'd make sure you judiciously vacuum the bottom of the tank at water changes without stirring things up too much...it helps remove those trophants that have fallen off the fish from the system.

Keep that water oxygenated, sounds like that angel likely suffered some gill damage. I tend to taper down the dosing just slightly when I see improvement since those treatments can be hard on livestock. YMMV though...whatever you do don't stop treating altogether too soon.

Good luck! Keep us posted

 

[MartinsReef]

So where are you at in the treatment process? Are you doing th two tank method? that seems to work but the method does seem to putt added stress to the fish. Which brand/ie copper?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

 

[ShelbyJK500]

Oops, meant to say that I had already started copper, so I haven't ventured into the tank transfer method. Maybe the next time (hopefully not) I deal with ich.

Glad to hear you've seen some improvement. I'd make sure you judiciously vacuum the bottom of the tank at water changes without stirring things up too much...it helps remove those trophants that have fallen off the fish from the system.

Keep that water oxygenated, sounds like that angel likely suffered some gill damage. I tend to taper down the dosing just slightly when I see improvement since those treatments can be hard on livestock. YMMV though...whatever you do don't stop treating altogether too soon.

Good luck! Keep us posted

From what I understand, I shouldn't lower my doses/levels at all with the copper. I want to make sure I'm withing the "killing" levels of the copper, otherwise I might be stopping "effective" treatment too soon? Does that make sense? RE: keeping the water oxygenated...does anyone use air stones in their QT's? I haven't seen any in peoples QT's...but was beginning to wonder without a skimmer if the water is getting enough gas exchange. I have the HOB filter that drops water in, and a small koralia nano running in the tank, is that enough?!?

So where are you at in the treatment process? Are you doing th two tank method? that seems to work but the method does seem to putt added stress to the fish. Which brand/ie copper?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk

I'm using Cupramine and I'm about a week in. Fish look great again tonight, and the flame angel is eating even better than i've ever seen! Hopefully I'm finding my way out of the woods on this.

Thanks for the ALL the support and great input by everyone!

 

[jahmic]

From what I understand, I shouldn't lower my doses/levels at all with the copper. I want to make sure I'm withing the "killing" levels of the copper, otherwise I might be stopping "effective" treatment too soon? Does that make sense? RE: keeping the water oxygenated...does anyone use air stones in their QT's? I haven't seen any in peoples QT's...but was beginning to wonder without a skimmer if the water is getting enough gas exchange. I have the HOB filter that drops water in, and a small koralia nano running in the tank, is that enough?!?

You're correct on that...I should have been more specific and indicated that I usually just stop increasing the concentration of medication in the tank. So, being that things are looking to have improved, if you keep up with the water changes and are testing the copper levels...I would do my best to maintain those levels...I was just assuming you were still slowly increasing the concentration of copper in the tank.

It sounds like you likely have enough circulation going on in the tank to oxygenate the water. That being said, I always run an airstone in my QT while medicating because I figure it won't hurt. If you don't have a lid on the tank though, you'll just want to watch for evaporation with the airstone so that you can maintain a stable level of salinity. IMHO, I'd just leave things as they are now since you've seen improvement.

As for the 2 tank method...maybe my handling of the fish in the transfer isn't gentle enough, but I've lost more fish attempting to move them than I have when I just leave them in the tank and let them heal up. ymmv...but I've found it stresses the fish too much for me to try that again.

 

[MartinsReef]

I'm using Cupramine and I'm about a week in. Fish look great again tonight, and the flame angel is eating even better than i've ever seen! Hopefully I'm finding my way out of the woods on this.

Thanks for the ALL the support and great input by everyone!

I am glad to here things are looking up. Let me now if you need to use another tank or the uv unit. I have a 20gal and a 29gal Qt tanks if you need them.

~Martin