hey there i have notices a big change in my corals here lately so checked my wp aand my nitrates and phosphates were on the rise they got up to a 5 on nitrates and don't remember the phosphates but they were up there also did a water change which brought the nitrates down to a .02 and the phosphates were down also two days later my nitrates were up again and i do not know what else to do can you help thanks
nitrates and phosphates
- Thread starter coralman
- Start date
there is nothing dead in the tank and this is my 90G display my 55g is doing great the star fish are brittle stars the reason i am asking about the micro algeas is mine is about .75" thick and should i thin it out to allow new growth to help with the nutrients or leave it alone i plain on adding anther ph tomorrow to see if that helps
What do you mean by nitrate factory? A system can only put put out (nitrate) in balance with what is put in (food/waste byproduct). I never understood the term of nitrate factory. Bio balls/wet dry filters provide a very efficient space for nitrifying bacteria to grow and convert ammonia/nitrite to nitrate. Granted it does not provide a anaerobic area for denitrifying bacteria to colonize. The bottleneck in the system would be the lack of a method of exporting the nutrients, not the process of converting them from the more toxic forms, IE ammonia/nitrite, unless I am missing something?
Coralman,
You will have a rise in nutrients (phosphate/nitrate) if you don't have a efficient enough means to export them. In other words if you are adding food faster than the system can convert/uptake them your levels will rise.
There are many ways to reduce nutrients
Nitrate:
Water changes
Micro/Macro Algae, Algae turf scrubbers
Carbon dosing - bio pellets, vodka, vinegar, sugar dosing
Anaerobic areas for denitrifying bacteria to grow (dense rock, deep sand beds, nitrate reactors)
Phosphate:
Same as above however it is reduced in a lower ratio and food is typically higher in phosphates then its converted product of nitrate (if that makes sense). This is why GFO is a good addition to a system because it specifically targets phosphate ions.
Coralman,
You will have a rise in nutrients (phosphate/nitrate) if you don't have a efficient enough means to export them. In other words if you are adding food faster than the system can convert/uptake them your levels will rise.
There are many ways to reduce nutrients
Nitrate:
Water changes
Micro/Macro Algae, Algae turf scrubbers
Carbon dosing - bio pellets, vodka, vinegar, sugar dosing
Anaerobic areas for denitrifying bacteria to grow (dense rock, deep sand beds, nitrate reactors)
Phosphate:
Same as above however it is reduced in a lower ratio and food is typically higher in phosphates then its converted product of nitrate (if that makes sense). This is why GFO is a good addition to a system because it specifically targets phosphate ions.
Bio balls create a lot of dead spots which all the bacteria can't keep up with desolving which in turn creates a Ton more nitrates. With bio balls you do need a large skimmer to export nutrients. I had nitrate problems in my big reef and over a 6 month period I removed all my bio balls and kept everything the same and my nitrates went away, me personally I would replace that area in your sump with more refugium or a large skimmer. That's my .02 from my experiance
People always say about bio balls are nitrate factories but if you're going to say that then you're liverock your sandbed is also going to be considered a nitrate factory. It's all about maintaining the system used to lower nitrates. I originally had bio balls on my 72 gallon I slowly started phasing them out but after I did that I had higher nitrates than I did when using them. I put then back in and my nitrates dropped. I even run a vertex in-350 skimmer. With the combination I keep my nitrates lower than 1 ppm I need a Hanna meter to read lower. This is with 15 fish. It's a love hate relationship either you like it or you don't. If you clean 10% of your bioballs regularly than they work great.
I think if you use a filter sock before the bioballs there is less chance of becoming a nitrate factory.
Detritus can become trapped in the bioballs but if you filter it out before they enter or if you maintain
the bioballs religiously, you "shouldn't" have a problem with excess nitrates.
A lot of breeders still use bioballs for extreme bioloads and they don't have nitrate problems from what
I've heard.
Rock and sand can become nitrate factories also if detritus is allowed to settle into it.
Bioballs is one of those areas that some people love them, some people hate them. I say, if they work
for you, excellent.
Bioballs are also excellent to use for raising copepods (harpactacoid). They love the surface area.
Detritus can become trapped in the bioballs but if you filter it out before they enter or if you maintain
the bioballs religiously, you "shouldn't" have a problem with excess nitrates.
A lot of breeders still use bioballs for extreme bioloads and they don't have nitrate problems from what
I've heard.
Rock and sand can become nitrate factories also if detritus is allowed to settle into it.
Bioballs is one of those areas that some people love them, some people hate them. I say, if they work
for you, excellent.
Bioballs are also excellent to use for raising copepods (harpactacoid). They love the surface area.
I guess I still don't understand. If there were "dead spots" wouldn't that be a prime place of anaerobic area for the denitrifying bacteria to colonize?
Can you explain? If its not breaking down what form is it in? Nitrate is the second to last product of the nitrogen cycle before it is converted to nitrogen gas. It has to break down/deslove in order to become nitrate.
Could this be anecdotal? Is it not possible that your denitrifying bacteria at this point started to colonize enough to reduce the nutrients? I say this because dentrifying bacteria takes a much longer time to colonize then nitrifying bacteria.
Please don't take what I am saying as argumentative, I am just trying to understand the concept of nitrate factory. I just dont see how wet dry filters, bio balls can create more nitrate then what we put into the system. Granted it may convert ammonia/nitrite much faster than live rock and tank surface area due to being such a high aerobic area but I just dont see how it increases nitrate.
Can you explain? If its not breaking down what form is it in? Nitrate is the second to last product of the nitrogen cycle before it is converted to nitrogen gas. It has to break down/deslove in order to become nitrate.
Could this be anecdotal? Is it not possible that your denitrifying bacteria at this point started to colonize enough to reduce the nutrients? I say this because dentrifying bacteria takes a much longer time to colonize then nitrifying bacteria.
Please don't take what I am saying as argumentative, I am just trying to understand the concept of nitrate factory. I just dont see how wet dry filters, bio balls can create more nitrate then what we put into the system. Granted it may convert ammonia/nitrite much faster than live rock and tank surface area due to being such a high aerobic area but I just dont see how it increases nitrate.
You've just answered your own question 
You are correct that the bio balls can't create more nitrate than what is put into our systems. The additional surface area of the bio-balls allows for MUCH more aerobic bacteria to colonize within the system. As a result, the rate of conversion from ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate increases dramatically. As you mentioned in a previous post, nitrate is removed from the system via whatever means of nutrient export we select; if that rate of export can not meet or exceed the rate that waste is converted to nitrates by the bacteria living in the bio balls, then what you end up with is the "nitrate factory".
Something to consider: a system running a skimmer is pulling a large amount of nitrogenous waste out prior to conversion to nitrates. Running bio-balls in conjunction with a skimmer "works" because you are essentially pulling waste out of the tank before it is consumed by bacteria, thereby lowering the size of the bacterial colony living in those bio-balls. Bacteria will only colonize a system to a point of equilibrium where the amount of waste introduced into the system is sufficient to feed the colony. They have a rapid life cycle and are able to adjust their numbers within hours depending upon the available nutrients (and available surface area). No skimmer = much larger colony living in the bio-balls due to the available surface area and nutrients. That larger bacterial colony is able to convert nitrogenous waste to nitrates faster than the system can utilize or export it, and you end up with excess nitrates.
Filter socks pretty much accomplish the same thing...as long as you keep up with regular cleanings. They trap detritus prior to making it into the bio-balls. Removing and cleaning the sock exports nitrogenous waste prior to conversion to nitrate...which again limits the size of the bacteria colony living in the bio-balls. Once again, this limits that rate of conversion so that the production of nitrates does not exceed what your system is able to export or uptake.
I do get what you're saying concerning the fact that this waste has to "come from somewhere"...and it doesn't seem feasible that nitrates would be higher given the same parameters just because you add bio-balls and increase the size of the bacteria colony. However, the detritus is still in the system and it's rate of decay is controlled by bacteria and microorganisms that colonize the surfaces of our tank (including those bio-balls). We aren't adding NH3 and PO4 to the tank when we feed...it's the proteins in the foods and waste from the fish that decay and initiate that cycle. They can either sit around and wait a while to be broken down, or be converted rapidly if given the right conditions.
hth
You are correct that the bio balls can't create more nitrate than what is put into our systems. The additional surface area of the bio-balls allows for MUCH more aerobic bacteria to colonize within the system. As a result, the rate of conversion from ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate increases dramatically. As you mentioned in a previous post, nitrate is removed from the system via whatever means of nutrient export we select; if that rate of export can not meet or exceed the rate that waste is converted to nitrates by the bacteria living in the bio balls, then what you end up with is the "nitrate factory".
Something to consider: a system running a skimmer is pulling a large amount of nitrogenous waste out prior to conversion to nitrates. Running bio-balls in conjunction with a skimmer "works" because you are essentially pulling waste out of the tank before it is consumed by bacteria, thereby lowering the size of the bacterial colony living in those bio-balls. Bacteria will only colonize a system to a point of equilibrium where the amount of waste introduced into the system is sufficient to feed the colony. They have a rapid life cycle and are able to adjust their numbers within hours depending upon the available nutrients (and available surface area). No skimmer = much larger colony living in the bio-balls due to the available surface area and nutrients. That larger bacterial colony is able to convert nitrogenous waste to nitrates faster than the system can utilize or export it, and you end up with excess nitrates.
Filter socks pretty much accomplish the same thing...as long as you keep up with regular cleanings. They trap detritus prior to making it into the bio-balls. Removing and cleaning the sock exports nitrogenous waste prior to conversion to nitrate...which again limits the size of the bacteria colony living in the bio-balls. Once again, this limits that rate of conversion so that the production of nitrates does not exceed what your system is able to export or uptake.
I do get what you're saying concerning the fact that this waste has to "come from somewhere"...and it doesn't seem feasible that nitrates would be higher given the same parameters just because you add bio-balls and increase the size of the bacteria colony. However, the detritus is still in the system and it's rate of decay is controlled by bacteria and microorganisms that colonize the surfaces of our tank (including those bio-balls). We aren't adding NH3 and PO4 to the tank when we feed...it's the proteins in the foods and waste from the fish that decay and initiate that cycle. They can either sit around and wait a while to be broken down, or be converted rapidly if given the right conditions.
hth