3 Questions

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#1
1. noticed stainless clamp in fuge has rusty bolt. Is this creating a problem i.e. phosphate elevation or ....

2. Are phosphate and nitrate related like say, alkalinity and PH?

3. Test kits. What is the simplest kit that is affordable? I noticed Elite used one that had a 3 min wait and turned pink for nitrate levels.... I am not loving the APIs.

Thanks. J
 

FinsUp

According to my watch, the time is now.
M.A.S.C Club Member
#2
rust is a definite problem. Metal in saltwater is a problem. You'll want to get that out of your fuge right away.

Not an expert on the other stuff, so I'll let smarter folks answer those questions.
 

Dr.DiSilicate

Great White Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
ex-officio
#3
I'd replace the clamp with a plastic one. Ace has them.

Ph is affected by alk to an extent. Phosphate and nitrate are separate issues.

I like the Red Sea tests as well as the salifert (spelling) the API kits are not good IMO I'd invest in a Hanna checker for alk if you can. Then get a Red Sea calcium kit. Calcium and alk are the big 2 you need to watch. I never check my ph. Phosphate tests for hobbyists are notoriously inaccurate. I know I have an issue with phosphate because my corals are light in color and I have an algae issue. Time to look at my feeding habits. Lol
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#4
Dr.HarlemTutu;315581 said:
I'd replace the clamp with a plastic one. Ace has them.

Ph is affected by alk to an extent. Phosphate and nitrate are separate issues.

I like the Red Sea tests as well as the salifert (spelling) the API kits are not good IMO I'd invest in a Hanna checker for alk if you can. Then get a Red Sea calcium kit. Calcium and alk are the big 2 you need to watch. I never check my ph. Phosphate tests for hobbyists are notoriously inaccurate. I know I have an issue with phosphate because my corals are light in color and I have an algae issue. Time to look at my feeding habits. Lol
Thanks Doc. You know, I found internet "info" from one rusty bolt on a stainless clamp not being a problem, to those who felt that the answer was a marine clamp for around $100! I was wondering if it even made sense to get a phosphate test as it sounds like there is more than one type of phosphate in a tank anyway - so you answered that as well. Appreciate it.
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#5
FinsUp!;315580 said:
rust is a definite problem. Metal in saltwater is a problem. You'll want to get that out of your fuge right away.

Not an expert on the other stuff, so I'll let smarter folks answer those questions.
That is what I thought- thanks Cindy.
 

SynDen

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#6
1. Well first I would remove any metals that could come in contact with the water. Stainless steel is mostly inert but the bolt likely is an iron composite and likely coated in nickel or some other metal. While iron is one of the essential ingredients in sea water, and needed for certain animals like snails and crabs to grow, you dont really want elevated levels of it. The other ingredients that make up the bolt could potentially be toxic as well. Its not going to add to phosphate levels though.

2. yes and no. They arent linked quite as intimately as PH, calc and Alk are but the two do go hand in hand. For instance, you do need a certain amount of nitrates to promote healthy bacteria populations and without that population you wont be able to bring down the phosphates without using some external measure to export it. Some others may be able to elaborate on this further though

3. Red sea test kits or salifert kits seem to be the best but also can be pretty pricey though. In this case though I would say it is worth the price.
 

SynDen

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#7
ThatsDeep!;315584 said:
Thanks Doc. You know, I found internet "info" from one rusty bolt on a stainless clamp not being a problem, to those who felt that the answer was a marine clamp for around $100! I was wondering if it even made sense to get a phosphate test as it sounds like there is more than one type of phosphate in a tank anyway - so you answered that as well. Appreciate it.
Yes there are various forms of phosphates in our tanks, and testing for phosphates is probably the most difficult thing to test for in a reef tank. In order to test for all forms of phosphates you need some really expensive lab equipment to test for it
 

jahmic

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#8
Just curious...what's the clamp in the fuge for? You can probably find a cheap alternative using bits of acrylic/plastic and nylon screws depending on the application.

I just started testing phosphates recently...and found out that my levels were high but not alarmingly so. IMO you can get away with just testing for nitrates if you are looking to control your nutrients. Unless you are keeping a tank of sps and are trying to balance a low nutrient system...I just don't see the need to buy that phosphate test kit. I purchased one out of curiosity and have found that testing my nitrates is a good enough "marker" for my phosphate levels. If my nitrates increase...my phosphates do too...and if I can bring down my nitrates through water changes, filtration, macro algae growth...my phosphate levels are going to go down as well. I'd say they are related in that respect...with the caveat that you can have sustained high phosphate levels if your rock is not aged enough and is leeching phosphates in the water (e.g. if you started the tank with dry rock). If you are having algae issues, I would just check for phosphates at your lfs intermittently to see how your efforts at reducing the levels are fairing. For test kits I'd definitely invest in: Alk, Ca, Mg, and Nitrate. Salifert makes great kits, but can be a little pricey. I know Red Sea has a reefing kit (Red Sea Reef Foundation) that contains most if not all of those tests...picking that up will probably save you some coin as opposed to buying the Salifert kits individually.
 

DyM

Sting ray
M.A.S.C Club Member
#9
High Po4 definitely affects SPS -

If you carbon dose as an export for NO3 and PO4, then they are interrelated, and some hobbyists even go as far as wanting to dose NO3 to process out more PO4. Otherwise and more often than not, they are not directly tied to on another. If you use GFO for PO4, it will not impact NO3. If you use a sulfur reactor for NO3, it will not impact PO4.

Some of the other forums have actual chemists working for DOW, or studied at Harvard. Their explanations more often than not go over my head with formulas and such.
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#10
jahmic;315588 said:
Just curious...what's the clamp in the fuge for? You can probably find a cheap alternative using bits of acrylic/plastic and nylon screws depending on the application.

I just started testing phosphates recently...and found out that my levels were high but not alarmingly so. IMO you can get away with just testing for nitrates if you are looking to control your nutrients. Unless you are keeping a tank of sps and are trying to balance a low nutrient system...I just don't see the need to buy that phosphate test kit. I purchased one out of curiosity and have found that testing my nitrates is a good enough "marker" for my phosphate levels. If my nitrates increase...my phosphates do too...and if I can bring down my nitrates through water changes, filtration, macro algae growth...my phosphate levels are going to go down as well. I'd say they are related in that respect...with the caveat that you can have sustained high phosphate levels if your rock is not aged enough and is leeching phosphates in the water (e.g. if you started the tank with dry rock). If you are having algae issues, I would just check for phosphates at your lfs intermittently to see how your efforts at reducing the levels are fairing. For test kits I'd definitely invest in: Alk, Ca, Mg, and Nitrate. Salifert makes great kits, but can be a little pricey. I know Red Sea has a reefing kit (Red Sea Reef Foundation) that contains most if not all of those tests...picking that up will probably save you some coin as opposed to buying the Salifert kits individually.
So, the clamp was what Kip used to insure the clear tubing stays on the pump outlet. It is not often submreged, but nonetheless I realized not a good thing and am going to go see if i can find a plastic type. Glad you mentioned the rock - damn. We have quite a bit of rock we got that was already growing coralline but also added pieces of the bleached rock when trying to get the right look to the tank [plus it was $2/lb!] Never thought about a leeching situation but that makes sense.

BTW - nice job catching your fish! As much as we all have to do that maybe a "Catch of the Day" thread would be a good idea! [jk] Thanks for the input.
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#11
SynDen;315586 said:
1. Well first I would remove any metals that could come in contact with the water. Stainless steel is mostly inert but the bolt likely is an iron composite and likely coated in nickel or some other metal. While iron is one of the essential ingredients in sea water, and needed for certain animals like snails and crabs to grow, you dont really want elevated levels of it. The other ingredients that make up the bolt could potentially be toxic as well. Its not going to add to phosphate levels though.

2. yes and no. They arent linked quite as intimately as PH, calc and Alk are but the two do go hand in hand. For instance, you do need a certain amount of nitrates to promote healthy bacteria populations and without that population you wont be able to bring down the phosphates without using some external measure to export it. Some others may be able to elaborate on this further though

3. Red sea test kits or salifert kits seem to be the best but also can be pretty pricey though. In this case though I would say it is worth the price.
Understood...I am leaning toward the Red Sea since it looks like i can get refills and the kit materials hold up longer. Thanks!
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#12
DyM;315593 said:
High Po4 definitely affects SPS -

If you carbon dose as an export for NO3 and PO4, then they are interrelated, and some hobbyists even go as far as wanting to dose NO3 to process out more PO4. Otherwise and more often than not, they are not directly tied to on another. If you use GFO for PO4, it will not impact NO3. If you use a sulfur reactor for NO3, it will not impact PO4.

Some of the other forums have actual chemists working for DOW, or studied at Harvard. Their explanations more often than not go over my head with formulas and such.
Ha! Yes, I know the 'over my head' explanations are amazing. I have looked into carbon dosing but really don't want to go there at this time. We have tried some "advanced frags" and clearly we will have to get the tank to that point as they don't thrive but it really makes sense for us to hang with soft corals for another few months since our tank is only 6 months old. Just felt I should read up and prepare :)

Thanks for taking the time to respond - appreciate it! Jody
 

Dr.DiSilicate

Great White Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
ex-officio
#14
jahmic;315603 said:
You can head over to the hardware store and get some heavy duty zip ties...they work just as well as those clamps IME and you don't have to worry about rust :)

Also...if you want a more convenient option for maintenance, I've used these and they work great:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/ratchet-clamp-for-tubing-2.html
Plus 1 and ace caries those ratchet clamps.
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#15
Dr.HarlemTutu;315646 said:
Plus 1 and ace caries those ratchet clamps.
I decided to let Kip get home from golfing and decide what he would like to do about the bolt as it only submerges when the system is off. Still it has to go now. I guess all "Aces" are not created equal :( I went there yesterday and the guy said no plastic clamps and thought I should buy a new stainless clamp and and stainless bolt... crazy.) Not a Boulder girl but wish we were closer to McGuckins.... we could spend hours in there.

I am liking the plastic ties idea too but Kip is the "hydro" portion since he dealt with waterline all his life. I seem to be default chemist and QC - ha!
 

jahmic

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#16
Yea both Aces in my neighborhood don't carry the clamps either..so it's hit or miss on what you find there.
 

jda123

Dolphin
M.A.S.C Club Member
#17
I use the stainless clamps in my tanks sometimes. The rust is not a huge issue and people put it in their tanks in the form of GFO. Replace it when you can because it will eventually fail, but don't lose too much sleep over it if you don't get it done soon.

Nitrate and phosphate are not linked chemically, but they are biologically. Anything that grows in your tank will need to consume phosphate. Some algae will consume nitrate, but they need the phosphate too - some bacteria are the same way. Micro fauna will consumer the algae, but also need phosphate. The organisms also need carbon to grow, but this also gets introduced into your tank when you feed (this is another topic for another day). Typically, you want them both to be low, or high... but not too high. Too high is deadly to inverts. If you used aragonite sand and live rock, then organisms that develop in the tank over a year, or so, will handle the N and P in equilibrium by using aragonite to bond/swap the phosphate and then using it to grow/multiply. A good export mechanism (skimmer) will keep excess out and although it can limit your microfauna growth during peak times by removing fuel, it will also help keep the levels from getting out of control during a fall back. If you interrupt the process of letting your tank fully mature by using vinegar, vodka, GFO, silica sand, dead/dry rock, then you are on your own for processing and the tank will not be able to do it... sometimes never, and sometimes for 2+ years. Here is the bottom line: just let the tank be for a year and it will all get sorted out if you used the right stuff... if you feed high quality foods, then the N, P and carbon are introduced in balance already and should be about the right mix to feed the organisms in your tank.

FWIW - I think that the Salifert test kits are better than red sea... they change color with just one drop (mostly) and are more accurate.
 

ThatsDeep!

Clown Fish
M.A.S.C Club Member
#18
jda123;315705 said:
I use the stainless clamps in my tanks sometimes. The rust is not a huge issue and people put it in their tanks in the form of GFO. Replace it when you can because it will eventually fail, but don't lose too much sleep over it if you don't get it done soon.

Nitrate and phosphate are not linked chemically, but they are biologically. Anything that grows in your tank will need to consume phosphate. Some algae will consume nitrate, but they need the phosphate too - some bacteria are the same way. Micro fauna will consumer the algae, but also need phosphate. The organisms also need carbon to grow, but this also gets introduced into your tank when you feed (this is another topic for another day). Typically, you want them both to be low, or high... but not too high. Too high is deadly to inverts. If you used aragonite sand and live rock, then organisms that develop in the tank over a year, or so, will handle the N and P in equilibrium by using aragonite to bond/swap the phosphate and then using it to grow/multiply. A good export mechanism (skimmer) will keep excess out and although it can limit your microfauna growth during peak times by removing fuel, it will also help keep the levels from getting out of control during a fall back. If you interrupt the process of letting your tank fully mature by using vinegar, vodka, GFO, silica sand, dead/dry rock, then you are on your own for processing and the tank will not be able to do it... sometimes never, and sometimes for 2+ years. Here is the bottom line: just let the tank be for a year and it will all get sorted out if you used the right stuff... if you feed high quality foods, then the N, P and carbon are introduced in balance already and should be about the right mix to feed the organisms in your tank.

FWIW - I think that the Salifert test kits are better than red sea... they change color with just one drop (mostly) and are more accurate.
jda - Thanks for the good info. I think we need to let the tank "be" like you say. It is 6 months old and other than studying the the many ways of dosing as a control, it does not feel like it would make sense to do something that invasive in a new and delicate system. I did get a Salifert kit and it is a pleasure to use by comparison to the API and I get a reading consistent with checks that Elite has done for us.
 
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