From behind the glass my fish must see me as the angel of death

#1
My apologies to the oceans, the hobbyists, and every fish I seem to come in contact.

Yet again I have proven unless it is a damsel or a chromis that I will undoubtably kill it.
Been fighting ich in a DT after some made it through my qt a month back.

The victims a Klein Butterfly and a FoxFace Rabbit. The butterlfy was losing its battle with ich and I was passed due to pull them back to qt for treatment. The fox was showing a couple spots on his fins, but otherwise was fine. To attempt to be consistent and get ich out of my dt I trapped both fish last night and pulled them to my qt.

The qt is a ten gallon tank running an old hob filter with no media. And a sponge/powerhead
set up that I have had in my sump for a month to gather bacteria. There is a 50w Heater and a few pieces of PVC T's. Thats the tank. Its been up and running for about 3 weeks, the sponge/powerhead was added yesterday.
The params
Temp 79
Salt 1.025
nitra too low to reg
nitri too low to reg
amm 0
ph 8.2

I added my fish to the QT last night at 8pm. The foxface was upset by the move but turned back to his yellow non camo self after about 45 min. The angel didnt even seem bothered by the move. Just continued to swim about, they both eat the few bits of food that made it in from the fish trap transfer, was mysis shrimp frozen cube. The remainder of the food was sucked from the bottom of the tank using my syringe feeder, trying to keep waste in the tank down.

Anyhow both seemed to acclimate quickly to the tank, slight heavy breathing but both acting normal. At midnight I dosed my first treatment of cupramine, using a 1ml syringe.
1ml administered gave me .02 reading on my salifert test kit, it was about 1am when I tested.

Happy that everything had went smoothly I went online to watch some vids of cod/bf3 trying to decide which one I was getting. At 2am I came back to check on the tank, the butterfly had sunk to the corner and passed. I was ****ed, but I knew I waited to long on the move and the butterfly was just too sick and stressed by the ich. But my fox face was looking decent, he was in his camo colors perched in a pvc looking like he was ready for bed, his normal deal is just crooking himself next to a rock and getting some rest. Nothing looked abnormal.

I said good night to my fish and gave an apologetic flush to my butterlfy and went off to bed.

11 am today. Eager to check how my fish was doing he was my first stop after waking up. He was floating next to the filter water inlet, dead of course.
Not long dead from my guess he was still soft and not discolored at all. After my initital 2 minutes of rage, I began to check how this could have happened.

I got nothing... tests all read the same from the first round. Copper is still sitting at 2ppm
At first I blamed heat, but upon checking the water with an oldschool therm it showed 79, my dig one occasionally gives wacky readings.

So Im at a loss. My tank params on my DT are very stable, and over the last few months Ive corrected alot of my beginner mistakes and my corals are all growing great, aside from the one chalice I cant seem to get results from.

The qt tank was set up and monitored closely without a param being off.

Im tired of killing fish.
If you can see a hole in my process or something I made a mistake with please tell me.
I am damn close to going fishless forever.
Will give this one more try after I run my tank fallow for the next 3 months.
Ill be keeping my qt tank running during this time and will be attempting to qt another potential inhabitant in time with my tank running out its fallow period.

Any recommendations or help or ideas please let me know
 

Boogie

Dolphin
M.A.S.C Club Member
#2
Sounds like you did everything right. Sorry, I know it sucks and ill be the first to Assyrian you're not the first to loose some. Don't give up. Sorry.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
 
#3
If it was only some fish it wouldnt be so bad. Through my learning curve I have killed: Yellow Eyed Kole Tang, Foxface butterfly x2, Coral Beauty, Klein Butterfly, Banded Butterfly, lawnmower blenny, powder tang.

Only two of those fish have died in the DT. When I got this tank it was already running and the neglected so the powder tang and lawnmower I cant take full credit.

The other deaths are mine though. The coral beauty and yellow eyed tang died in dt 8 months ago when I didnt react to the ich they were getting. They just weakened and died in the tank. Was still making mistakes with taking care of my tank so Im sure my learning curve provided the instabilities that lead to stress and ich getting the best of them. At that time I still had a foxface rabbit fish, chromis, and damsel in the ich infested tank. I moved all 3 to qt for hypo. Which I botched and let an ammonia spike hit which killed the foxface, the chromis and damsel survived. They survived hypo for weeks and then 6 weeks of watching to make sure no symptoms. Neither ever showing a single spot of ich. They are tough little guys. After about 3 months I put them back in the DT.
So I got brave bought another foxface and a butterfly and began qt on em. After 6 weeks they still hadnt shown any spots so they went in dt. Watching my water and testing every other day everything was going well. Had a heater freaking out causing temp spikes and drops and the butterlfy showed some ich. Fixed the heater and began metro/focus
The fox never had more than a spot or two and both ate well on several diff frozen foods along with nori as a once a week treat. Butterlfy started getting more spots so started the hospital tank going let it run for a couple of weeks as I tried the metro/focus method. Butterfly hadnt improved so after the hospital tank was stable and the sponges I intended to use were well seeded I moved em to the hospital tank. And somehow once again my qt killed both within 24 hours.

Just cant see wtf I am doing when I try to start treatment that is killing them every time.
 

hurrafreak

Orca
M.A.S.C Club Member
#4
What size is the DT? Some of those are big fish and maybe having them together get be stressfull? Or maybe you damsel is picking on them, leading back to stress?? I don't know of course, I'm just throwing ideas out there lol. A tank I take care of for my neice had a heater malfunction giving ich to everything and pretty much killing everything within a day or two, kind of the nature of that beast. After this incident I didn't add fish for probably 3 months but kept doing water changes and adding some corals here and there.

Are the stores you're getting your fish from QT'ing them before you are? It may be worth it to go to a store that does QT beforehand. I'm a bad reefer and never QT, but that's mostly because where I get my fish from have alredy QT'ed before me. The best thing is to not get discouraged, trust me (and pretty much everyone here) in the fact that we've all lost fish at some point or another. Make sure you keep testing, keep doing them water changes, and make sure that you are buying livestock from reputable locations.
 
#5
So this week will be setting up a 20 long in my computer room. I would like to get this tank cycled and running while I run my DT fallow. I will be running it with another hang on back filter set up and re seeding another sponge for it, then moving my damsel and chromis in there until it is cycled and I can rehome my damsel. It will be a bare tank with just pvc t's.
Hoping to have it as a very stable permanent qt.

So the questions or advice I need:
Will the chromis be enough to keep the cycle maintained?
As a 6 week qt for new additions in this tank would running it as a hypo set up for all new additions for atleast 6 weeks be enough to drastically reduce the likely hood of ich making it back into my DT?
Would the chromis going through hypo then back to normal with each new addition be harmful for the chromis, assuming proper time for the raising and lowering of salinity?
 
#6
hurrafreak;125898 said:
What size is the DT? Some of those are big fish and maybe having them together get be stressfull? Or maybe you damsel is picking on them, leading back to stress?? I don't know of course, I'm just throwing ideas out there lol. A tank I take care of for my neice had a heater malfunction giving ich to everything and pretty much killing everything within a day or two, kind of the nature of that beast. After this incident I didn't add fish for probably 3 months but kept doing water changes and adding some corals here and there.

Are the stores you're getting your fish from QT'ing them before you are? It may be worth it to go to a store that does QT beforehand. I'm a bad reefer and never QT, but that's mostly because where I get my fish from have alredy QT'ed before me. The best thing is to not get discouraged, trust me (and pretty much everyone here) in the fact that we've all lost fish at some point or another. Make sure you keep testing, keep doing them water changes, and make sure that you are buying livestock from reputable locations.
The damsel has never shown aggression to the other tank mates, nor do have any seem stressed by his presence, Ill be taking him out anyhow just to eliminate any chances. The fox and the buttefly have been buddies since they were added. They swim together, eat together, sleep together was kind of cool they were buddies.

The local fish store I use primarily isnt great. I never get a straight story of how long they have had the fish and have to talk em into feeding so I can atleast see em eating. Each fish I have got from them I have watched for a few visits before buying. Im sure they have ich present most lfs do, but thats what my qt is for. I just missed it from too short a qt time. I think just little things add up to dead fish when you stack em together. I have been trying to keep salt about a year and a half now so plenty of learning curve.

My next additions will be months away and come from one of our more reputable sponsors as well as going through a proper qt once home. Hopefully this will do the trick.
Just have to make sure I can get and maintain a good cycle on my 20 long for the qts. My reefs very stable now pending another equip malfunction lol. So once they actually make it through a QT or if treatment is needed they make it through treatment I should be good.

After I get everything set up Ill post params and situation of the tank before I add any new fish to qt.
Any suggestions regarding blanket treatment to all new additions for ich? I know some do it, but not all. And also a split of people do it with copper and some with hypo.
 

andyrm66

Butterfly Fish
#7
That sucks! Im going through an Ich cleanout as we speak. Once I am past this, not one fish, coral, crab nor snail will touch my system or DT equipment without proper QT/Treatment. I dunno why you're having such issues. What was you alkalinity at? Cupermine does some bad things below 50ppm or 50 mg/l 6dkh is around 125 I think. All I know is after going through, what you and myself are going through, I never want to deal with this again. Im sure you are at the same point. Just dealing with this one incident has made this turn from from hobby to almost unenjoyable, excpet for all the learning and reading about protozan lifecycles! I dont even want to know what I spent yesterday on copper, test kits, bulkhead, heater, salt, pvc to get the HT setup right.
 
1

120greefman

Guest
#9
Skip the qt. Have the lfs do the qt and get it after a week and put it right in your tank.
 
1

120greefman

Guest
#11
Not necessarily. I haven't qt'd a fish since day one and my tank is good. I just make sure they have been at the lfs for awhile before purchase. If you still get ick from that I would recommend a new lfs.
 

andyrm66

Butterfly Fish
#12
Neither had I until my tang had ick. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money, every fish store has ich, and most tanks do. Fish just have subclinical symptoms. Not trying to be a jerk, but saying you wont get ich if it was QT at the LFS is gross misinformation.

The only way to be 100% is to treat every fish you own, every fish you buy, and qt every coral, rock or other wet piece for 8 weeks.

Awesome reading here. I will admit, before I got ich, I thought I was ich free, turns out you probably have it all along.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
 

djkms

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#13
120greefman;126002 said:
Not necessarily. I haven't qt'd a fish since day one and my tank is good. I just make sure they have been at the lfs for awhile before purchase. If you still get ick from that I would recommend a new lfs.
You do realize how lucky you are right? There is not one LFS in Colorado which QT's ALL their livestock for 6-8 weeks. Granted most livestock will show symptoms of disease within 2 weeks but solely depending on a fish store to provide 100% healthy livestock is foolish. Also, the longer a fish is in a store the MORE likely it is to get sick. Most fish stores order new livestock every week and new specimens will be added to the systems, increasing the chance for disease if limited or no QT practice is in place. Dont get me wrong there are great stores out there and some stores that do QT fish for a limited time but it is not fair to say look for a new LFS if the one you go to had a fish with disease. Every store has dealt with disease and have unknowingly sold sick fish. It is ultimately your responsibility to assure healthy livestock going into your tank, not the stores.
 
1

120greefman

Guest
#14
djkms;126004 said:
You do realize how lucky you are right? There is not one LFS in Colorado which QT's ALL their livestock for 6-8 weeks. Granted most livestock will show symptoms of disease within 2 weeks but solely depending on a fish store to provide 100% healthy livestock is foolish. Also, the longer a fish is in a store the MORE likely it is to get sick. Most fish stores order new livestock every week and new specimens will be added to the systems, increasing the chance for disease if limited or no QT practice is in place. Dont get me wrong there are great stores out there and some stores that do QT fish for a limited time but it is not fair to say look for a new LFS if the one you go to had a fish with disease. Every store has dealt with disease and have unknowingly sold sick fish. It is ultimately your responsibility to assure healthy livestock going into your tank, not the stores.
I should have been more specific in that if every fish dirtefish has bought was from the same lfs and it died maybe he should try another lfs to see if he gets the same results. And yes a fish can still get ick even after qt. Usually comes about from high stress or poor living conditions though. I don't consider myself lucky either when it comes to my tank. I have simply taken the time to educate myself on buying healthy fish, proper living conditions and tank maintanance.
 

djkms

Reef Shark
M.A.S.C Club Member
#15
I do want to state that fish disease is common. I am at the shop (Premier) at least twice a week and see all the fish orders that come through. We get our livestock from the best wholesaler in the industry, Quality Marine. Not every fish comes in sick but the percentage is higher than most of you would think. Most reputable stores treat their fish and most diseases can be caught/cured by the store but the only way to make sure fish are 100% healthy going into your system is by quarantining yourself for at least 6 weeks but 8 is better. I don't know one fish store that guarantee's 100% disease free fish. Something to keep in mind. 120greefman is correct though, stress is a huge factor, some believe ich is always in your system, I myself am still on the fence with this one.
 
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andyrm66

Butterfly Fish
#16
Before I read that article and did some research I thought the same thing. Its proven its not though. It has to be introduced, either by a fish with bones (infected) or the protomont stage, say on a coral, in some live rock or other wet items. Many fish wont show signs or the tell tale signs. This is why a simple QT for 8 weeks will bite you in the ***. Each fish needs to be treated with hypo or copper, before being added to your system. Corals need an 8-10 qt to make them clean. Is it a pain? Yes. Does it cost money yes. How much is being stressed over your fish getting ich everytime a PH swing, or temp change happens? I hate being stressed and am getting to the point where Im approching over $500 in fish, so for me the choice became clear. Might copper kill a dwarf angel? Yes, its a risk. But worth it to me, to me, to know if I buy a $900 kiri trigger fish, it wont die becuase of Ich.
 
#17
Always feed low doses of metranirozole and never worry about ich like me :). I put a fish infested with ich into my frag tank which had about 5 fish consistently eating food with metranirozole in it. None of the inhabitants got ich and that badly infested new inhabitant recovered 2 weeks later. It works
 
#18
Don't blame stores. It would be like blaming king soopers for getting a sour apple. 6-8 weeks in qt is old school and IMO so overkill. I've had ich a bunch of times and have learned how to not only treat it but simply not get it. Uv + low constant dose of metranirozole = no ich. Copper really is hard on fish. SomePeople are going greatly disagree with my entire outlook but it has worked incredibly for me.
 

andyrm66

Butterfly Fish
#19
I read some on that, though I wanted to be sure and there are some side effects to long term use, also its used primarily for bacterial infections not prtozans, though it does seem to affect the free swimming stage to an unknow degree.
"Metronidazole is used to treat bacterial infections of the vagina, stomach, skin, joints, and respiratory tract"
 

andyrm66

Butterfly Fish
#20
I cant tell you what works or doesnt work for you, sounds like you have a system figured out. How high of a UV does are you running? It needs to me at least 90000 some sources say 210000, which at those levels are also destory every other single living thing that passes through them.
 
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