From behind the glass my fish must see me as the angel of death
- Thread starter dirtefish
- Start date
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On the whole store thing, why do the majority of hobbyists bash and blame petco for their saltwater setups? This too is a store and is viewed poorly from many saltwater enthusiasts as shown on many threads on other national sites. It's amazing how blame can be cast there but in this situation it's absolutely out of the question. My point is, if every fish died from the same supplier then why not try a different store to see the results? Hate to get off topic but simply exploring a different avenue. After reading the original posts over and over it seems unstable conditions in the dt are the cause of the ich. After that some temp swings which could of led to stress and have been the problem. The fish being added are prone to ich. Damsels, chromis etc are not. Also a qt of 10 gallons for fish that need room to swim does not seem sufficient. From some of the original posts it sounds like the problem lies with keeping stable conditions in the aquarium, not having temp swings or spikes in ammonia. That would be a good start and then possibly try some of the other suggestions in the aforementioned replies.
Wasnt trying to start a bash our LFS for diseased merchandise thread, so sorry if it went in that direction.
Ich isnt really the problem, it exists and its common. So is the fact that we have an immense number of members who can treat it successfully with little to no issues.
Whether its qt with meds or hypo or constantly feeding metro everyone has a way they have overcome it, I just havent found mine yet. The mistakes I made early on have caused the ich to be a constant issue, the mistakes I made during qt allowed it into my dt. The mistakes I made when treating the fish whether it was my botched hypo that turned into hypoammonia, my stint using metro that just prolonged the amount of time I let the fish stay in my dt, or this last screw up which i still cant figure out.
The point of the thread was looking for advice on how I screwed up this last time, which thank you guys I did get some good input and possible ideas of how I have killed my fish this time.
The last fish that died for what seemed like no reason may be a non ich related death. After looking at considering everyones input I looked at every step I had for my hospital tank. So possibilities including but not limited to the following.
F buying heaters from petsmart the store brand they sell after tearing down the tank I found the entire glass of the heater to be about half full with water, maybe I chose to electrocute my fish this time.
Cupramine has an interaction warning with some declorinators, although it was filled with water from my main display the tank previously held one of my ornery cichlids which had most of its water come from tap and was treated. Its initial set up it was filled with tap and then dechlor, so possible residue.
Just temp fluctuations, that heater has shown not to be great quality and in a ten gallon tank it will lose heat or heat up very quickly.
Bottom line is there are so many damn variances, I just didnt have it nailed down. Ill be attempting to pull the last two fish from my dt this weekend. A chromis and a damsel. Both these guys are hardy as hell and have lasted through 3 ich outbreaks and countless moves in and out of qt without ever getting a spot. The tank there going in will be a 20l with different heater/filtration and another sump sponge. Will see if i can balance this little tank out and time it with my dt running fallow to try for new fish in the future. My reef will just remain a reef till then with no fishies.
If ya have any input on setting up the new qt/fo observation tank or whatever it will be called lol please let me know.
Its a 20l with a 30g aqualclear filter, a sponge/powerhead and ordering a jebo heater for it tonight. Standard lights no substrate just some pvc for them to make homes. Will be filled with fresh salt rodi water and ran for about a week before attempting to start the cycle. Was going to use dt water, but since it has ich at the moment not sure if thats a good idea.
Once again toss me any input on setting it up. Ive read every link ever tossed to me, but I miss things.
And please dont turn to a bash fest on the LFS, some suck some dont. All of em got the pain in the *** job of dealing with fragile living things and for the most part do a decent job. There are so many other things we can pick on em for the ich is just a scapegoating them for what we already know is a pain in the *** issue to deal with.
Ich isnt really the problem, it exists and its common. So is the fact that we have an immense number of members who can treat it successfully with little to no issues.
Whether its qt with meds or hypo or constantly feeding metro everyone has a way they have overcome it, I just havent found mine yet. The mistakes I made early on have caused the ich to be a constant issue, the mistakes I made during qt allowed it into my dt. The mistakes I made when treating the fish whether it was my botched hypo that turned into hypoammonia, my stint using metro that just prolonged the amount of time I let the fish stay in my dt, or this last screw up which i still cant figure out.
The point of the thread was looking for advice on how I screwed up this last time, which thank you guys I did get some good input and possible ideas of how I have killed my fish this time.
The last fish that died for what seemed like no reason may be a non ich related death. After looking at considering everyones input I looked at every step I had for my hospital tank. So possibilities including but not limited to the following.
F buying heaters from petsmart the store brand they sell after tearing down the tank I found the entire glass of the heater to be about half full with water, maybe I chose to electrocute my fish this time.
Cupramine has an interaction warning with some declorinators, although it was filled with water from my main display the tank previously held one of my ornery cichlids which had most of its water come from tap and was treated. Its initial set up it was filled with tap and then dechlor, so possible residue.
Just temp fluctuations, that heater has shown not to be great quality and in a ten gallon tank it will lose heat or heat up very quickly.
Bottom line is there are so many damn variances, I just didnt have it nailed down. Ill be attempting to pull the last two fish from my dt this weekend. A chromis and a damsel. Both these guys are hardy as hell and have lasted through 3 ich outbreaks and countless moves in and out of qt without ever getting a spot. The tank there going in will be a 20l with different heater/filtration and another sump sponge. Will see if i can balance this little tank out and time it with my dt running fallow to try for new fish in the future. My reef will just remain a reef till then with no fishies.
If ya have any input on setting up the new qt/fo observation tank or whatever it will be called lol please let me know.
Its a 20l with a 30g aqualclear filter, a sponge/powerhead and ordering a jebo heater for it tonight. Standard lights no substrate just some pvc for them to make homes. Will be filled with fresh salt rodi water and ran for about a week before attempting to start the cycle. Was going to use dt water, but since it has ich at the moment not sure if thats a good idea.
Once again toss me any input on setting it up. Ive read every link ever tossed to me, but I miss things.
And please dont turn to a bash fest on the LFS, some suck some dont. All of em got the pain in the *** job of dealing with fragile living things and for the most part do a decent job. There are so many other things we can pick on em for the ich is just a scapegoating them for what we already know is a pain in the *** issue to deal with.
That article is certainly not definitive and really not even valid from a scientific point of view. It is not peer reviewed and it is not published in a recognized scientific journal. The jury is very much out on weather ich persists in the environment. Metranirozole is actually an anti peotozoal and used to treat gheardia ( another protozoan)
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Wasn't starting a bash your lfs thread. This is a discussion thread and I was simply throwing out an option as many other ideas were already thrown out there. Sorry if people interpreted it the wrong way. Will try to stick to pure scientific facts on future posts as we know everyone has figured out every aspect of this hobby and avoid any opinions. lol
Lol i just hate how in this hobby people literally with no qualifications and only a single observation will state something as a fact. That then spreads throughout the hobby and we are all using a method that has no basis what so ever. Ich is one of those topics that people have done this alot with.
I’m going to gracefully bow out of this conversation as I feel we aregetting way OT from the OP. I will say there is plenty of scientific proof andcommon sense that shows Ich does not exist in a airborne state or otherwise"persists in the environment" once it has been eradicated. Its no differentthan ecoli the flu or a cold; it MUST be introduced into a biotope, not justthe air. Our systems are closed biotopes.
The only juries still out, are those that choose to ignore research or usesloppy treatment procedures, thereby missing total eradication of the protozoan.Its simple, once its gone from your system its gone. The only way it gets backin is through a wet transfer; albeit wet fish net, fish, coral, live rock, or whatever.
Not that I’m going to change your mind T as it seems your set in your ways:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/11/76
If you can post peer reviewed journals to thecontrary, I'd be glad to read them.
I posted the reefkeeping article as it citesmany scientific journals and was much easier to read that what most people wouldhave an interest in reading.
If you’d like to continue to discuss, I have athread on RC as well as one here regarding Ich and treatment.
The only juries still out, are those that choose to ignore research or usesloppy treatment procedures, thereby missing total eradication of the protozoan.Its simple, once its gone from your system its gone. The only way it gets backin is through a wet transfer; albeit wet fish net, fish, coral, live rock, or whatever.
Not that I’m going to change your mind T as it seems your set in your ways:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/11/76
If you can post peer reviewed journals to thecontrary, I'd be glad to read them.
I posted the reefkeeping article as it citesmany scientific journals and was much easier to read that what most people wouldhave an interest in reading.
If you’d like to continue to discuss, I have athread on RC as well as one here regarding Ich and treatment.
I actually was referring the the article spstimie posted. It is just written by some guys who put it in a book. If you are going to discuss ich make sure you are versed on the protozoan life cycle. Protozoans can live in a suspended larval state for extended periods of time. Ich is not well understood by the scientific community because it is not a human disease. However gheardia is well known and has been studied extensively. Just FYI an experienced reefer such as the ones that wrote the article spstimie linked is not qualified to make scientific observations. Having a marine biologist as a contributor also does not qualify the article because we do not know what part he wrote. If it were the other way around and the marine biologist had written the article and the experienced reefer had been a contributor it would carry alot more weight. Scientific method is sooooo important and what non scientists often over look. I don't mean to sound like an *** but It's true and our forums are riddled with it.
Okay, I have to post this,
The longest "suspended state" which really isn't suspended, rather just in the division/hatching stage for the tomonts is, 72 days, though this is at a much lower temp than what we keep reefs at.
Colorni, A. & Burgess, P.J. “Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the Cause of White Spot Disease in Marine Fish: an Update.” Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, 1, 217-238, 1997.
The longest "suspended state" which really isn't suspended, rather just in the division/hatching stage for the tomonts is, 72 days, though this is at a much lower temp than what we keep reefs at.
Colorni, A. & Burgess, P.J. “Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the Cause of White Spot Disease in Marine Fish: an Update.” Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, 1, 217-238, 1997.
Think about it this way though. The studies just aren't there to say whether or not there are carriers such as inverts in our tanks that could prolong persistence in the environment. Also occasionally paricites will have several different life cycles including one that is a complex life cycle involving multiple carriers for different stages of development. I don't think ich is one but we don't know. Truth is that you are right in that there is little scientific evidence to support either side. My point is though that people that qt for 8 weeks get ich like the rest of us. Soooooooo something science has not documented fully is going on.
It has been proven that corals can transport Cryptocaryon irritans as protomonts or tomonots, but not host.
"Cryptocaryon irritans is a ciliated protozoan parasite of marine teleost fish in tropical and temperate waters. This pathogen is an obligate parasite of marine fish (Iwama, Pickering, Sumpter & Shreck, 1997.Dickerson & Dawe, 1994)." Meaning, it can’t survive without a host,which must be a boney fish.
I agree with you that people that QT for 8 weeks still get it. Heres why -it wasn’t treated. The fish they QT’ed had subclinical symptoms, or rather had it, but you wouldn’t be able to tell without a biopsy. Perhaps one Trophont in the fishes gills, that’s all it takes. QT isn’t a treatment, it is for observation, and if the person doesn’t observe Ich for 8 weeks, they think thef ish is good. They then add it to the DT. Next week you get a ph spike, tempswing or whatever, and the fish now is covered in it? Why? The stressor weakened the immune system of the fish, allowing the parasite to gain a better foothold.Once again, as you said misinformation is to blame. Fish stores and many peoplein the hobby say, QT it, then you’ll be fine. This is a farce.
What happens next? The fish keeper goes on line, and says "I qt all myfish and corals for 8 weeks, there is no way I have Ich, but I do." Every one takes this to mean Ich magically appeared in the fish keepers tank, which wasn’t the case, it was introduced by a fish, that had subclinical symptoms. Had the fish keeper used one of two, scientifically proven methods, (Copper or hypo) to treat the fish, regardless of symptoms or lack thereof, he wouldn’t have Ich in the DT, wouldn’t be perpetuating incorrect information, and the hobby would be that much better for it.
That’s, all. Good convo.
"Cryptocaryon irritans is a ciliated protozoan parasite of marine teleost fish in tropical and temperate waters. This pathogen is an obligate parasite of marine fish (Iwama, Pickering, Sumpter & Shreck, 1997.Dickerson & Dawe, 1994)." Meaning, it can’t survive without a host,which must be a boney fish.
I agree with you that people that QT for 8 weeks still get it. Heres why -it wasn’t treated. The fish they QT’ed had subclinical symptoms, or rather had it, but you wouldn’t be able to tell without a biopsy. Perhaps one Trophont in the fishes gills, that’s all it takes. QT isn’t a treatment, it is for observation, and if the person doesn’t observe Ich for 8 weeks, they think thef ish is good. They then add it to the DT. Next week you get a ph spike, tempswing or whatever, and the fish now is covered in it? Why? The stressor weakened the immune system of the fish, allowing the parasite to gain a better foothold.Once again, as you said misinformation is to blame. Fish stores and many peoplein the hobby say, QT it, then you’ll be fine. This is a farce.
What happens next? The fish keeper goes on line, and says "I qt all myfish and corals for 8 weeks, there is no way I have Ich, but I do." Every one takes this to mean Ich magically appeared in the fish keepers tank, which wasn’t the case, it was introduced by a fish, that had subclinical symptoms. Had the fish keeper used one of two, scientifically proven methods, (Copper or hypo) to treat the fish, regardless of symptoms or lack thereof, he wouldn’t have Ich in the DT, wouldn’t be perpetuating incorrect information, and the hobby would be that much better for it.
That’s, all. Good convo.
I didn't post a link to an article. It is a book about purchasing and keeping healthy fish. It's a good read for a hobbyist. And it does reference the contributing authors in the book. I really don't think textbooks would have made good suggestions, but I can list a few if you like. If you know any free places to read journal articles, I am sure they will get put to good use if posted.
If I was recommending something for curing disease, I would suggest http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/diseases.html
Not a book at all, but it will get the job done.
Should have learned by now...Never suggest reading something here.
If I was recommending something for curing disease, I would suggest http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/diseases.html
Not a book at all, but it will get the job done.
Should have learned by now...Never suggest reading something here.