Looking for some help determining if my tank has stray voltage. I do not have a volt meter but borrowed one in the past to test the tank but couldn't confirm it. I have a grounding probe and again I am not sure if it's done right. Anyone out there with experience in this can help me figuring it out? And by help I mean stopping by and showing me how to test correctly. My main reason for checking it is that both my tangs are developing signs of HLLE and about a month ago I lost a small vlamingi tang possibly partially to HLLE. I don't think HLLE is being caused by water quality or diet. So just want rule out or fix stray voltage possibility here. Thanks in advance.
Really need some help. Stray voltage => HLLE ??
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Get a volt meter -Analog or high quality digital. Put it on the AC voltage setting. One test lead in the water, and the other in the ground plug of an outlet (the bottom one by itself). If any voltage is present it means you have a voltage leak. A grounding probe should be easy enough - probe in the tank, and plug it in. As for HLLD or HLLE, It has been theorized as possible. Good luck. Be safe.
late,
GD
nthego:
late,
GD
nthego:I'll try to test it today again. I guess my main concern is that the plugs in the basement in the room where the tank is are not properly grounded. The room was finished before we bought the house. I tested all the plugs with just a regular plug in tester to see if it was wired correctly and they seemed to be ok. The strange thing is that when I had an ich outbreak in the beginning of last summer I moved all the fish into QT and kept them there for three months. No filtration whatsoever just water changes. My yellow tang had minimal signs of fin erosion and all that was gone after being in QT. After completing the hypo treatment I moved all the fish back to DT and a couple of months ago I started noticing HLLE sign again. So that's why I am suspecting a voltage leak. Just not sure where it is coming from.
No carbon reactor, I used chemipure media bag in the sump, just in the high flow area. I don't use a heater my tank never goes below 77-78 degrees. The only things that are in the water are three Koralias, Reef octopus skimmer. I run external reef low pump and that's it. Just picked up an analog multimeter and tested everything. Did not pick up any voltage in the water. Plugs seem to be grounded properly. I think I may be able to rule out stray voltage as a cause for HLLE. What else can it be? Too much meaty foods for tangs? I feed protein enriched mysis, brine, and another mix. I give them seaweed sheets daily plus formula 2 frozen food. As far as the number of fish in the tank I don't think it's overcrowded. I have two tangs(hippo and yellow), two clowns, yellow coris wrasse, CBB, flame angel and a diamond goby. The tank is 150 gal. Really puzzled to say the least...
My money would be on the koralia pumps. I bought several of these a few years back and 1/2 of them gave off stray current into the tank.
Edit: The above would be my guess if it is stray voltage. But I agree, more green in their diet. The dried seaweed IMO does not give enough nutrients for them. I would go with either an algae pellet or live algae. If you feel like driving to Fort Collins, I can give you some live sea lettuce and you can see if your tangs would like to much on it.
Edit: The above would be my guess if it is stray voltage. But I agree, more green in their diet. The dried seaweed IMO does not give enough nutrients for them. I would go with either an algae pellet or live algae. If you feel like driving to Fort Collins, I can give you some live sea lettuce and you can see if your tangs would like to much on it.
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IMO, stray voltage always seems to be the goto issue when things cant be explained.
I think the most obvious question hasn't even been asked here. What do you feed your tangs? Being herbivores in nature they require I highly concentrated "green" diet. If you are not feeding your tangs nori (or other algae predominant food) on a daily basis then i would say this is your issue. As a matter of fact I would say 9/10 cases of HLLE in tangs is due to poor diet.
If it is a stray current (its current you have to worry about not voltage) your ground probe could actually be the problem. Running a probe without a GFI could actually be completing the path.
For more info and a good read check this out:
http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html
I think the most obvious question hasn't even been asked here. What do you feed your tangs? Being herbivores in nature they require I highly concentrated "green" diet. If you are not feeding your tangs nori (or other algae predominant food) on a daily basis then i would say this is your issue. As a matter of fact I would say 9/10 cases of HLLE in tangs is due to poor diet.
If it is a stray current (its current you have to worry about not voltage) your ground probe could actually be the problem. Running a probe without a GFI could actually be completing the path.
For more info and a good read check this out:
http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html
If all of your outlets are plugged into a GFCI and it doesnt trip on you when a pump turns on, there is no risk of damage to any livestock. If you want to test for "stray voltage" the correct way, you need to connect a ground rod to one area of the tank, connect your voltmeter to the same ground rod, and move the other end around the water on the mV AC setting. If it shows zero there is no voltage gradient in the tank and nothing to be worried about.
As stated above, current does the real damage, and current can only be induced if there is a difference in voltage from one end of the fish to another. A perfect example of this is how my companies lineman work on 345,000 volt lines while they are live. They fly up to it in a helicopter and the lineman connects a copper cable between himself and the 345,000 volt line which brings him to the same potential as the line. Since he is at the same potential as the line, he can touch it with his bare hands and doesnt even feel a tingle. It works the same way for stray voltage. I would venture to guess 99% of people that blamed this disease on "stray voltage" did the test incorrectly and it was not the underlying problem.
As stated above, current does the real damage, and current can only be induced if there is a difference in voltage from one end of the fish to another. A perfect example of this is how my companies lineman work on 345,000 volt lines while they are live. They fly up to it in a helicopter and the lineman connects a copper cable between himself and the 345,000 volt line which brings him to the same potential as the line. Since he is at the same potential as the line, he can touch it with his bare hands and doesnt even feel a tingle. It works the same way for stray voltage. I would venture to guess 99% of people that blamed this disease on "stray voltage" did the test incorrectly and it was not the underlying problem.
That method of doing the test is actually testing what is known as ground potential rise by referencing the voltage of the tank to the ground in your house. To test for "stray current", you need to check for a voltage difference between two points in the tank (ie. black side in one part of the tank, red side on the other). This tells you if there is a potential difference that would allow a current to flow through a fish. Continuous exposure to 0.5mA of current, which corresponds to a voltage difference of of about 0.05mV across the length of a fish (based on V=IR and average resistance of a saltwater fish at 0.1 ohm) can cause damage over a long period of time. The ground potential rise test can be useful in determining if the insulation inside the windings of a pump are starting to degrade if only one pump causes a large increase in voltage and can be an indicator that it is time to change the pump before it short circuits in the tank. If said pump with a degraded insulation were turned on and off a lot, the rapid change in ground potential rise can cause a transient change in the voltage gradient of the tank, which will allow a small amount of current to flow through fish for a very short time (1 or 2 milliseconds). The ground potential rise test can also indicate that you have a poor connection from the ground of your outlet to earth ground if a voltage is measured when no outlets are on or several outlets contribute a small change.
What the .......
What the......
A perfect example of this is how my companies lineman work on 345,000 volt lines while they are live. They fly up to it in a helicopter and the lineman connects a copper cable between himself and the 345,000 volt line which brings him to the same potential as the line. -A linemen hooking a cable to himself and the line is no different than just touching the line - as long as no circuit is formed then there is no danger. A bird can sit on one wire just fine, just can't have the wing tips touch two different lines. No circuit, no power flow. If electricity was so predictable and safe, then more journey lineman would have thumbs left, instead of their big toe on their hand.
As stated above, current does the real damage.....-Current does damage, but so does voltage - just in a different way. Both can harm/kill you. Think pacemaker or AED. Ever mess around with a battery and a transformer in middle school? Hell of a rude shock - all voltage, no real current issue at play. Imagine getting shocked 24 / 7!!!
If all of your outlets are plugged into a GFCI and it doesn't trip on you when a pump turns on, there is no risk of damage to any livestock.- Having a GFCI outlet is for your protection, not the protection of your livestock. If power comes in from the "hot" wire, and out from the "neutral", then a GFCI will not trip. It doesn't know whether the water/fish/motor/heater is completing the circuit. GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPT. It means if there is no "fault" to ground, then no interruption. (Remember back in the day when electronics builders didn't have an isolation transformer in there? Oh, simpler times.)
The ground potential rise test can also indicate that you have a poor connection from the ground of your outlet to earth ground.... - Please remember that in most homes the Neutral bar and the Ground bar are joined in the main breaker box.
........you need to connect a ground rod to one area of the tank, connect your voltmeter to the same ground rod, and move the other end around the water on the mV AC setting... -Hooking one lead of the meter to the ground probe is no different than just putting that lead in the water.
Sorry for the rant. Always remember that electricity is just trying to find the "easiest" way home - ALWAYS. The path of least resistance is the easiest way - whether it be through you, water, a fish, ground rod, etc. Path of least resistance = low resistance in Ohms. Most human bodies have a resistance of 1.5 Meg ohms to 1.8 Meg ohms- the idea that prompted a grounding rod - since it has less resistance than you do. Have your house wiring inspected by a certified electrician if you are concerned. If your house is older ( 30+ years), then your home insurance company may want it inspected/replaced anyway. If you want to be 100 percent certain that no leakage exists, I would recommend that you find someone that has access to the high end / expensive electronics scopes (that will have their own power supply, to avoid ground feedback loops/voltage spikes) to actually measure individual component electricity use/seepage. May try a local electronics college and see if someone wants a side job.
May want to just try some Veggie Rounds from Petsmart.
Late,
GC
What the......
A perfect example of this is how my companies lineman work on 345,000 volt lines while they are live. They fly up to it in a helicopter and the lineman connects a copper cable between himself and the 345,000 volt line which brings him to the same potential as the line. -A linemen hooking a cable to himself and the line is no different than just touching the line - as long as no circuit is formed then there is no danger. A bird can sit on one wire just fine, just can't have the wing tips touch two different lines. No circuit, no power flow. If electricity was so predictable and safe, then more journey lineman would have thumbs left, instead of their big toe on their hand.
As stated above, current does the real damage.....-Current does damage, but so does voltage - just in a different way. Both can harm/kill you. Think pacemaker or AED. Ever mess around with a battery and a transformer in middle school? Hell of a rude shock - all voltage, no real current issue at play. Imagine getting shocked 24 / 7!!!
If all of your outlets are plugged into a GFCI and it doesn't trip on you when a pump turns on, there is no risk of damage to any livestock.- Having a GFCI outlet is for your protection, not the protection of your livestock. If power comes in from the "hot" wire, and out from the "neutral", then a GFCI will not trip. It doesn't know whether the water/fish/motor/heater is completing the circuit. GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPT. It means if there is no "fault" to ground, then no interruption. (Remember back in the day when electronics builders didn't have an isolation transformer in there? Oh, simpler times.)
The ground potential rise test can also indicate that you have a poor connection from the ground of your outlet to earth ground.... - Please remember that in most homes the Neutral bar and the Ground bar are joined in the main breaker box.
........you need to connect a ground rod to one area of the tank, connect your voltmeter to the same ground rod, and move the other end around the water on the mV AC setting... -Hooking one lead of the meter to the ground probe is no different than just putting that lead in the water.
Sorry for the rant. Always remember that electricity is just trying to find the "easiest" way home - ALWAYS. The path of least resistance is the easiest way - whether it be through you, water, a fish, ground rod, etc. Path of least resistance = low resistance in Ohms. Most human bodies have a resistance of 1.5 Meg ohms to 1.8 Meg ohms- the idea that prompted a grounding rod - since it has less resistance than you do. Have your house wiring inspected by a certified electrician if you are concerned. If your house is older ( 30+ years), then your home insurance company may want it inspected/replaced anyway. If you want to be 100 percent certain that no leakage exists, I would recommend that you find someone that has access to the high end / expensive electronics scopes (that will have their own power supply, to avoid ground feedback loops/voltage spikes) to actually measure individual component electricity use/seepage. May try a local electronics college and see if someone wants a side job.
May want to just try some Veggie Rounds from Petsmart.
Late,
GC
I thought that I would give my thoughts on HLLE since the voltage thing is covered. There are tons of theories about HLLE, but I subscribe to a lack of vitamin and fatty acids being the main culprit. Most people think that tangs are herbivores, but they are omnivores that graze as well as eat plankton and dead/decaying meat. That meat is loaded with vitamin A and some has HUFAs. A is harder to get since it comes a lot from plants, but drying them out gets rid of a lot of it IIRC (I cannot remember where I read this). Just because they will graze on seaweed does not mean that they are herbivores. Back in the day, zoe and selcon would fix most cases of HLLE with vitaman A, E and some HUFAs. A solid food, like New Life Spectum, will have all of these in it, as well as more than enough greens. My tangs stay beautiful and grow like crazy with just NLS pellets, mysis and an occasional other treat. Even if you just introduce some PE Mysis (not the off-brand kind which is typically mysid), this will help a lot IMO.
It amazes me the difference in systems where HLLE is present, or not. I used to run a TON of carbon and never once had HLLE. Many others are the same. I wish that they would tell us the food that they used in the Coral Magazine article. I was also disappointed that they only used "high quality pellets" on a fish after it had HLLE.
It amazes me the difference in systems where HLLE is present, or not. I used to run a TON of carbon and never once had HLLE. Many others are the same. I wish that they would tell us the food that they used in the Coral Magazine article. I was also disappointed that they only used "high quality pellets" on a fish after it had HLLE.
Some very good points GiraffeCat, but the Electrical Engineer in me can't let any stone go unturned or any electrical principle be misspoken. My turn to rant! See comments to your comments below.
These injuries are the resultant of safety precautions not being followed correctly. A thumb being blown off happens when a lineman either doesn't make themselves the same potential as the line, or doesn't insulate them self properly if they are standing on ground or a pole. I agree that the bird would have been a better metaphor.
This is an often misunderstood topic, so I will attempt to set it straight. Voltage does not do any damage whatsoever, the current is what actually causes the damage. However, current can only be produced if there is a voltage present and the value of the current is dependent on both the resistance between the two points and the voltage between the two points. More specifically current is equal to the voltage between two points times the resistance between the same two points V=IR. This is why I stated earlier that if there is no voltage gradient in the tank (ie a difference in voltage from the head of a fish to its tail) then no current can pass through the fish and hence no damage can be done.
It actually protects both. a GFCI operates based on the principle of kirchoffs current law that states that the sum of the currents into any node must equal zero. The GCFI measures the current through the "hot" wire measures the current through the neutral wire. It then electrically subtracts the measured "hot" current from the measured neutral current. If "hot" minus neutral is greater than 1mA for an extended period (>1 sec) of time it will trip the outlet or if the current is greater than 4mA it will instantaneously trip the outlet. Any current that is "leaked" from the "hot" wire will not return through the neutral and will instead pass to ground directly, either through the grounded pump casing, tank ground rod, tank stand, or even a hobbyists body. This violates kirchoffs current law and causes the GFCI to trip when a current is "leaked".
This is a 100% correct statement! That is exactly why you can measure a voltage from your outlet to earth ground when there is a poor connection
Correct. both ways yield the same result.
The principle you stated is correct, but the actual value is 1000 wet to 10,000 ohms dry. reference IEEE 80 "guide for safety in substation AC grounding"
Well spoken. Safety should always be first priority and I strongly advice checking a tank for ground potential rise to ensure that both your equipment is operating correctly and also that there is not a sufficient voltage difference between your tank and the floor so you can avoid a possibility of electric shock. If my Fluke meter didn't break on me, I would offer to help with these tests myself for anyone that was interested. Once I get a new one I'll let everyone know.
May want to just try some Veggie Rounds from Petsmart.
Late,
GC[/QUOTE]
These injuries are the resultant of safety precautions not being followed correctly. A thumb being blown off happens when a lineman either doesn't make themselves the same potential as the line, or doesn't insulate them self properly if they are standing on ground or a pole. I agree that the bird would have been a better metaphor.
This is an often misunderstood topic, so I will attempt to set it straight. Voltage does not do any damage whatsoever, the current is what actually causes the damage. However, current can only be produced if there is a voltage present and the value of the current is dependent on both the resistance between the two points and the voltage between the two points. More specifically current is equal to the voltage between two points times the resistance between the same two points V=IR. This is why I stated earlier that if there is no voltage gradient in the tank (ie a difference in voltage from the head of a fish to its tail) then no current can pass through the fish and hence no damage can be done.
It actually protects both. a GFCI operates based on the principle of kirchoffs current law that states that the sum of the currents into any node must equal zero. The GCFI measures the current through the "hot" wire measures the current through the neutral wire. It then electrically subtracts the measured "hot" current from the measured neutral current. If "hot" minus neutral is greater than 1mA for an extended period (>1 sec) of time it will trip the outlet or if the current is greater than 4mA it will instantaneously trip the outlet. Any current that is "leaked" from the "hot" wire will not return through the neutral and will instead pass to ground directly, either through the grounded pump casing, tank ground rod, tank stand, or even a hobbyists body. This violates kirchoffs current law and causes the GFCI to trip when a current is "leaked".
This is a 100% correct statement! That is exactly why you can measure a voltage from your outlet to earth ground when there is a poor connection
Correct. both ways yield the same result.
The principle you stated is correct, but the actual value is 1000 wet to 10,000 ohms dry. reference IEEE 80 "guide for safety in substation AC grounding"
Well spoken. Safety should always be first priority and I strongly advice checking a tank for ground potential rise to ensure that both your equipment is operating correctly and also that there is not a sufficient voltage difference between your tank and the floor so you can avoid a possibility of electric shock. If my Fluke meter didn't break on me, I would offer to help with these tests myself for anyone that was interested. Once I get a new one I'll let everyone know.
May want to just try some Veggie Rounds from Petsmart.
Late,
GC[/QUOTE]
Point 1: I'm glad we agree that a bird is a good way to explain a circuit, and how to not die.
Point 2: I concede to Mr. Ohm, and will not venture into advanced biology.
Point 3: A GFCI will do the math, and trip if the math is wrong. This logic will only function if we assume that the leakage is going elsewhere - but there is no guarantee. If you cut the cord to a power head, grab the ends of the wire while not touching anything else then there is no leakage. The power is not being leaked anywhere, just going through you to get back. No power loss to change the math, just less available to turn the pump. As a better example, it is like placing an extra light bulb into a lamp circuit - the power is still coming in one wire and out the other wire, it's just that there is another resistance in the circuit. Power can leak into water from the source, then to its intended path back through the pump.
Point 4: Glad we agree
Point 5: Glad we agree
Point 6: Just going with how skin has a "dead skin cell" insulating layer - almost open - and that skin has a capacitive affect as well (except in AC). The bones are high resistance as well. Also, resistance will change based on muscle contraction - goes down when being electrocuted. Grab both test leads and squeeze hard to see what I mean.
Point 7: Glad we agree.
I still vote Veggie Rounds to help this guys Tang out.
Late,
GC
Point 2: I concede to Mr. Ohm, and will not venture into advanced biology.
Point 3: A GFCI will do the math, and trip if the math is wrong. This logic will only function if we assume that the leakage is going elsewhere - but there is no guarantee. If you cut the cord to a power head, grab the ends of the wire while not touching anything else then there is no leakage. The power is not being leaked anywhere, just going through you to get back. No power loss to change the math, just less available to turn the pump. As a better example, it is like placing an extra light bulb into a lamp circuit - the power is still coming in one wire and out the other wire, it's just that there is another resistance in the circuit. Power can leak into water from the source, then to its intended path back through the pump.
Point 4: Glad we agree
Point 5: Glad we agree
Point 6: Just going with how skin has a "dead skin cell" insulating layer - almost open - and that skin has a capacitive affect as well (except in AC). The bones are high resistance as well. Also, resistance will change based on muscle contraction - goes down when being electrocuted. Grab both test leads and squeeze hard to see what I mean.
Point 7: Glad we agree.
I still vote Veggie Rounds to help this guys Tang out.
Late,
GC