New tank cycle using dry rock and sand?

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

In the past I have always used Live sand and live rock in all of my tanks. The cycle was always pretty quick and trouble free. For my latest build I chose to use dry rock and sand. I added about 20 pounds of live rock and some sand, from another of my tanks, to my fuge. Everything has been up and running for a couple of weeks now, but there is still no sign of a cycle in progress. I have been dosing with pure ammonia, for a fishless cycle, and the concentration of ammonia has been hanging out at 2ppm. The nitrites are still at 0ppm. I would have expected to see sign that the ammonia is being broken down into nitrite by now. I have been using bacterial additives like cycle and stability and still no change.

Is this normal when using dry rock and sand?

 

[Cherub]

add a fish lol

 

[Atari]

You don't have anything putting amnoina in the tank. I did really well when I put 2 frozen shrimp in my 300gal tank

Sent from phone.

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

You don't have anything putting amnoina in the tank. I did really well when I put 2 frozen shrimp in my 300gal tank

Sent from phone.

I am personally adding pure ammonia to the tank. A method that is discussed widely throughout the internet and touted to work VERY well. I don't need to add shrimp or other food to the tank while dosing ammonia. As I said before, the ammonia is at 2ppm, an very high concentration. I don't think that a lack of ammonia is the issue.

 

[hurrafreak]

If you're using pure ammonia AND adding live bacteria's aren't you just adding more ammonia to the tank? I mean won't the live bacterias just die in that high ammonia?

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

I don't honestly know. I had never considered that. I guess I just assumed that the bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrite, so I assumed that they could survive in the high levels of ammonia. All of the info I have read on dosing ammonia say to keep the concentration at 2ppm until the level drops at which time you should see the nitrites increase and the ammonia concentration should continually drop even after additional doses of ammonia, showing that there are enough bacteria to keep up with a well stocked system. They also say to continue dosing until you are ready to add fish, otherwise the bacteria will begin to die off.

 

[jahmic]

It's my understanding that beneficial bacteria doesn't begin to die off until ammonia levels reach somewhere in the neighborhood of 6.0 - 8.0 ppm. I've actually experienced this myself when I was aging mineralized top soil in a FW setup...no fauna in the tank, of course. I was unable to keep up with the rapidly rising ammonia, even with daily 50% water changes...eventually the nitrite producing bacteria died off and it took a daily wc for a week before the ammonia dipped below 4 and the tank started producing nitrite again.

As for your issue...when did you add cycle and stability to your tank? Cycle is that bottle of bacteria, right? I've never used them personally, but have heard those bacteria additives can out-compete the bacteria that you WANT in your tank. The bacterial colonies in that bottle are also less sustainable...they won't colonize your tank, but are a quick fix early in the cycle. If you think about all the trouble we go through to keep bacteria alive in our tanks...circulation, oxygenation...its a wonder how the stuff in that bottle survives, no?

I don't know that its possible for that stuff to outcompete your seeded colony from the other tank...but its possible you had a die-off of bacteria in the tank as a result of that or too much ammonia dosing.

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

Interesting! I have been dosing cycle on a daily basis. Do you think I should stop adding it and see if things take off on their own. At this point I am willing to do almost anything to get things rolling along.

 

[hurrafreak]

Interesting! I have been dosing cycle on a daily basis. Do you think I should stop adding it and see if things take off on their own. At this point I am willing to do almost anything to get things rolling along.

This is what I would do

 

[jahmic]

Interesting! I have been dosing cycle on a daily basis. Do you think I should stop adding it and see if things take off on their own. At this point I am willing to do almost anything to get things rolling along.

Yep, I would stop dosing both the cycle and ammonia and see what happens. I'd also give things some time to settle as well before trying to re-seed the system. Maybe wait a week, keep testing...and if the ammonia keeps hovering then re-seed.

Please update us on what happens...this isn't the first time I've heard of this. It'd be interesting to see how plausible it is that the bottled stuff can actually slow the growth of sustainable bacteria colonies.

 

[chrislorentz]

run down to your nearest wally world, seek out a 12oz can of patients. By the time you find it you will have a cycled tank.

 

[projectx]

What about adding a cup or so of sand from an established tank?

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

Chris, I am not looking for an instant cycle, I just thought that I should have seen some sort of change in the params at this point.

projectx, I have already added some sand from one of my other tanks and a friend is going to give me some from his tank as well as some more live rock.

 

[chrislorentz]

you would think so after 2 weeks however it may be very slight and undetectable

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

Well, I have been letting things just happen, sort of. I did a 30% water change to get the ammonia to a better level. I then purchased some more live rock in order to add more bacteria to the tank. Right now my params are

Ammonia = 0.5 ppm
Nitrites = 0 ppm
Nitrates = 10 ppm

I am a little bit baffled by the nitrate reading. I have been expecting to see the nitrites go up and THEN the nitrates, but the nitrites have been steady at 0 ppm. Does this make sense to anyone else? I am using RODI water, mine not the LFS, and reef crystals salt. The only other thing I can think is that maybe my nitrite test kit is expired and not working properly.

 

[jahmic]

That would be my guess (expired/bad kit), and I actually forgot to mention before that you may want to calibrate your ammonia test.

Test your tank water vs RO/DI water with salt mixed in, and compare the readings. I know that my API kit often appears to have a reading of 0.25 ppm for ammonia, but testing against RO/DI water shows that the coloration of the tested tank water matches that of the RO/DI water.

You can also calibrate your Nitrate kit by making standard solutions (10, 25, 50 ppm is what I did last time) by mixing RO water and KNO3 fertilizer added in specific amounts. That will allow you to compare the readings your getting against actual vials containing the standard solutions. It's a bit time consuming, but will confirm how accurate your tests are. Unfortunately, I do not know of any way to make a calibration kit for the nitrites.

Here are a couple sets of instructions for calibrating Nitrate kits and Phosphate kits. (credit: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...83545-calibrating-test-kits-non-chemists.html)

Calibrating Test Kits

Calibrating a test kit means using that kit to measure some water samples with known concentrations of the substance being tested for, and using those test results to verify that the test kit is accurate, or to train yourself to recognize the colors that correspond to the concentrations you want to test for. Hobby test kits are not laboratory quality tests. That means we don’t need extreme accuracy in the standard test solutions we use for calibration. If we have a good quality gram scale, with +/-.01 gram accuracy, and good laboratory glass graduated cylinders to measure water volume, there are other articles that tell how to make very accurate standard solutions. The methods described here are for use with ordinary kitchen measuring equipment, measuring spoons and cups. And, the Fertilator calculator on APC was used to easily calculate how to mix these.

Nitrate Test Kits

First, buy a gallon of distilled water from your local grocery store. Use that to make the test standard solutions.

1. Add 1/4 teaspoon - a level measure, not a heaping measure - of KNO3 to 4 cups of distilled water (one quart). This gives you 4 cups of 800 ppm nitrate water.
2. Mix 1/4 cup of that 800 ppm water with 1 3/4 cups of distilled water. This gives you 2 cups of 100 ppm nitrate standard water.
3. Mix one cup of that 100 ppm water with one cup of distilled water. This gives you 2 cups of 50 ppm nitrate standard water.
4. Mix one cup of that 50 ppm water with one cup of distilled water. This gives you 2 cups of 25 ppm nitrate standard water.
5. Mix 1/2 cup of that 25 ppm water with 3/4 cup of distilled water. This gives you 1 1/4 cups of 10 ppm nitrate standard water.
6. Mix 1/4 cup of 25 ppm water with 1 cup of distilled water. This gives you 1 1/4 cups of 5 ppm nitrate standard water.
7. Use your test kit to measure the nitrate concentration in each of the 5,10,25, and 50 ppm nitrate standards. If you wish, add the 100 ppm standard to that set.
8. Compare the colors of those to the color card for your kit, and either verify the accuracy of the kit, or use those colors to train yourself to recognize the colors.

Your nitrate test kit is now calibrated. You can store the standard solutions in tightly sealed bottles for an indefinite period of time for future calibrations. Ideally, you calibrate the kit each time you use it.

Phosphate Test Kits

First, buy a gallon of distilled water from your local grocery store. Use that to make the test standard solutions.

1. Add 1/4 teaspoon - a level measure, not a heaping measure - of KH2PO4 to 4 cups of distilled water (one quart). This gives you 4 cups of 1000 ppm phosphate water.
2. Mix 1/4 cup of that 1000 ppm water with 2 1/4 cups of distilled water. This gives you 2 1/2 cups of 100 ppm phosphate standard water.
3. Mix one cup of that 100 ppm water with one cup of distilled water. This gives you 2 cups of 50 ppm phosphate standard water.
4. Mix one cup of that 50 ppm water with one cup of distilled water. This gives you 2 cups of 25 ppm phosphate standard water.
5. Mix 1/2 cup of that 25 ppm water with 3/4 cup of distilled water. This gives you 1 1/4 cups of 10 ppm phosphate standard water.
6. Mix 1/4 cup of 25 ppm water with 1 cup of distilled water. This gives you 1 1/4 cups of 5 ppm phosphate standard water.
7. Mix 1/4 cup of 5 ppm water with 1 cup of distilled water. This gives you 1 1/4 cups of 1 ppm phosphate standard water.
8. Use your test kit to measure the phosphate concentration in each of the 1,5,10, and 25 ppm phosphate standards. If you wish, add the 50 ppm standard to that set.
9. Compare the colors of those to the color card for your kit, and either verify the accuracy of the kit, or use those colors to train yourself to recognize the colors.

Your phosphate test kit is now calibrated. You can store the standard solutions in tightly sealed bottles for an indefinite period of time for future calibrations. Ideally, you calibrate the kit each time you use it.

 

[jahmic]

At this point, I'd say there's a good chance that you just missed seeing any detectable levels of nitrite in your tank.

Did the ammonia drop to 0.5 immediately following the water change? What was the ammonia level just prior to the water change and immediately after? A 30% water change shouldn't drop your ammonia from 2.0 to 0.5...so something else must have been going on in order to get the ammonia down that low and bring the nitrates up in your tank. My guess is that you had a quick cycle after allowing things to settle in the tank, and just missed reading the nitrite increase. I would definitely check that ammonia test on your tank water vs salt mix and see what you get. If you're really worried about high nitrates I would definitely take the time to calibrate that kit. Unfortunately most of us don't have KNO3 laying around (I'd assume)...I had some for a while but just sold it all since I stopped dosing my planted tank. FWIW I calibrated my nitrate test kit and found that APIs color indexing was pretty darn inaccurate.

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

Thanks for the input. The ammonia did drop to 0.5 after the water change. I am pretty much in agreement that the cycle is taking place. There were a few days where I did not test for nitrites because the ammonia was still SO high. Also half of the water for the water change came from one of my other tanks, adding more bacteria to the system. I am going to get a new test kit tonight after work and see if things are different with it. The other one is probably getting close to 2 years old anyway.

 

[lpsouth1978@msn.com]

Alright, I got a new test kit tonight and tested the water as soon as I got home. Everything is looking great. there is no ammonia or nitrites and only 5 ppm Nitrates. I am finally seeing signs of life in the fuge, though not all ideal. There are a couple of aptasia, a couple of snails, bristle worms, and of course some pods. I am also in the midst of the new tank diatom bloom.