Rock bottom tank??
- Thread starter Walter White
- Start date
The faux sand and/or these rocks will cover in coralline. If you were wanting the sandy look, you won't have it after a while.
Those porus rocks will still get detritus in them no matter what you do and how much flow you have. If you are worried about flow, then get a wave box - it is massively effective flow for LPS and SPS with no sand movement.
I would be more worried about the lack of aragonite for nitrate removal and phosphate binding/exchange. The idea of keeping everything suspended in the water column to be skimmed out only works in theory - most of it will still go through the N cycle. You are probably looking at a lifetime of GFO without a place for the bacteria to find the equilibrium and do their jobs. You could drive up your N if you GFO strip too much P for the anoixic bacteria to find equilibrium.
Have you studied some of the really nice BB systems on the national boards - most of the good ones have a remote sand bed.
Bare bottom is not as easy as people think. Most of the reasons why people want them don't pan out in real life IME. I tried one and hated it.
Those porus rocks will still get detritus in them no matter what you do and how much flow you have. If you are worried about flow, then get a wave box - it is massively effective flow for LPS and SPS with no sand movement.
I would be more worried about the lack of aragonite for nitrate removal and phosphate binding/exchange. The idea of keeping everything suspended in the water column to be skimmed out only works in theory - most of it will still go through the N cycle. You are probably looking at a lifetime of GFO without a place for the bacteria to find the equilibrium and do their jobs. You could drive up your N if you GFO strip too much P for the anoixic bacteria to find equilibrium.
Have you studied some of the really nice BB systems on the national boards - most of the good ones have a remote sand bed.
Bare bottom is not as easy as people think. Most of the reasons why people want them don't pan out in real life IME. I tried one and hated it.
Hmm...strange.
Surprising to see several people have tried variations of this theme and are having such poor results.
I have been working on this idea through several small builds, getting ready to build the full-sized system into my 120.
Been doing it for a year now on my current tank and it seems to be working great.
The tricky part for me was getting that area under the tiles to stay clean. To get that to happen, I had to raise everything up off the bottom with little hemispherical acrylic feet, and provide it with some killer flow. All the detritus works it way down under the sub-floor and then gets driven into the collection spots by the flow.
It by no means makes it so I don't have to clean it. But it stays a lot cleaner a lot longer, and because I am driving all the detritus into several concentrated areas, it's a snap to siphon out when cleaning. (The idea was to drive it all into ONE area, but that will come on this next build) I feed pretty heavy too.
You can't have any dead spots under the tiles, or it starts to accumulate--and an accumulation under the tiles is a pain to get out.
My cleanings mostly involve me blowing off the rocks with a powerhead, and then siphoning out the accumulated crap from the collection spots.
Surprising to see several people have tried variations of this theme and are having such poor results.
I have been working on this idea through several small builds, getting ready to build the full-sized system into my 120.
Been doing it for a year now on my current tank and it seems to be working great.
The tricky part for me was getting that area under the tiles to stay clean. To get that to happen, I had to raise everything up off the bottom with little hemispherical acrylic feet, and provide it with some killer flow. All the detritus works it way down under the sub-floor and then gets driven into the collection spots by the flow.
It by no means makes it so I don't have to clean it. But it stays a lot cleaner a lot longer, and because I am driving all the detritus into several concentrated areas, it's a snap to siphon out when cleaning. (The idea was to drive it all into ONE area, but that will come on this next build) I feed pretty heavy too.
You can't have any dead spots under the tiles, or it starts to accumulate--and an accumulation under the tiles is a pain to get out.
My cleanings mostly involve me blowing off the rocks with a powerhead, and then siphoning out the accumulated crap from the collection spots.
So just a few thing to clarify that I probably should have from the beginning. I in no way would be expecting this to have a look of sand or would want that. I decided after the first foam rock wall that I did that its either real and serves a specific purpose or I don't do it. I don't like form without function. So with the rock bottom the intention IS for it to be covered in coralline and encrusting corals which "may" not look as good as sand but IMO would be more natural and realistic that star board or just bare bottom.
Regarding the nitrifying aspects of sand beds. Obviously this is very important and "if" I were to go this route I do have a very large compartment in my 125 gallon sump for a remote deep sand bed, miracle mud what have you. Also while I do realize there is a pretty big difference in the anaerobic/aerobic bacteria of a deep sand bed vs that of nitrifying bacteria of like rock one plus is that the amount of surface area live rock to volume in this tank would be huge.
So I guess my biggest concern is that of most here, kaka getting trapped in the holes along the surface. I do believe I could in fact seal the bottom up enough with a little bit of sand alone to keep detritus from getting vastly accumulated under the rock but the surface is definitely a concern.
Being an engineer I am intrigued by the idea of a lifted bottom with spray bars or something and know I could come up with something pretty cool along those lines but at the same time I really don't think I want to go through all that hassle purely based on theory. What if it didn't work what an incredible b!tch and a half that would be to correct especially when you factor in the tank dimensions and how it will be built into the wall.
I guess I need to think on this some more, this is seeming more risky than I had origianlly thought in all my excitment. Perhaps the addition of a wave box is the ticket here. They just scare me. For those of you that have experience with wave boxes MIKE I KNOW YOU HAVE, and knowing how my tank is built do foresee a problem running a wave box in my tank? Of course I would call the manufacture of the tank to get their input.
I want to thank EVERYONE here for some really great input! I feel like its been a really long time on this forum since I have asked one of my goofy questions and got so many well thought out responses. I really appreciate everyone's time and advice.
Regarding the nitrifying aspects of sand beds. Obviously this is very important and "if" I were to go this route I do have a very large compartment in my 125 gallon sump for a remote deep sand bed, miracle mud what have you. Also while I do realize there is a pretty big difference in the anaerobic/aerobic bacteria of a deep sand bed vs that of nitrifying bacteria of like rock one plus is that the amount of surface area live rock to volume in this tank would be huge.
So I guess my biggest concern is that of most here, kaka getting trapped in the holes along the surface. I do believe I could in fact seal the bottom up enough with a little bit of sand alone to keep detritus from getting vastly accumulated under the rock but the surface is definitely a concern.
Being an engineer I am intrigued by the idea of a lifted bottom with spray bars or something and know I could come up with something pretty cool along those lines but at the same time I really don't think I want to go through all that hassle purely based on theory. What if it didn't work what an incredible b!tch and a half that would be to correct especially when you factor in the tank dimensions and how it will be built into the wall.
I guess I need to think on this some more, this is seeming more risky than I had origianlly thought in all my excitment. Perhaps the addition of a wave box is the ticket here. They just scare me. For those of you that have experience with wave boxes MIKE I KNOW YOU HAVE, and knowing how my tank is built do foresee a problem running a wave box in my tank? Of course I would call the manufacture of the tank to get their input.
I want to thank EVERYONE here for some really great input! I feel like its been a really long time on this forum since I have asked one of my goofy questions and got so many well thought out responses. I really appreciate everyone's time and advice.
ok so here is my honest take on everything.
I really do not see how this is any more of a crap trap than any other live rock. I would put money on the fact that you could take a power head in my tank and stir up enough junk off my rock to cloud the tank. Before people say "you don't have enough flow " I can assure you I have a ton. Also anyone who has seen my tank (Thunder) knows how open my sand bed is and I still get poop sitting in my sand bed even with a wave.
IMO do not get a wave box I took mine out 5 min. after the wp-40 was added to the tank. You might be able to do this with a mp-60 since you might have one. The wave boxes are big and a bit of an eyesore if you ask me and they need 18" in front of them with no coral (according to the directions) I know your tank and your space if it was me I would never use a wave box. I would and do use a wave function and love it.
Like I said I think we sit down have a beer (maybe include Andrew) and problem solve this idea I think it would look so sharp.
I really do not see how this is any more of a crap trap than any other live rock. I would put money on the fact that you could take a power head in my tank and stir up enough junk off my rock to cloud the tank. Before people say "you don't have enough flow " I can assure you I have a ton. Also anyone who has seen my tank (Thunder) knows how open my sand bed is and I still get poop sitting in my sand bed even with a wave.
IMO do not get a wave box I took mine out 5 min. after the wp-40 was added to the tank. You might be able to do this with a mp-60 since you might have one. The wave boxes are big and a bit of an eyesore if you ask me and they need 18" in front of them with no coral (according to the directions) I know your tank and your space if it was me I would never use a wave box. I would and do use a wave function and love it.
Like I said I think we sit down have a beer (maybe include Andrew) and problem solve this idea I think it would look so sharp.
I love this idea. I know you well enough to know that there will not even be enough space to slide a sheet of paper between the rocks, and you'll seal the edges to prevent kaka from getting underneath. Likewise, anyone that knows you would know that you're gonna have a killer sump for it, with deep sand bed and all kinds of good stuff in it (and it'll prolly be pristine). I agree with Mike on the wavebox- you don't want that uglifying your tank when you can get the same effect with something smaller. Rock collects detritus no matter where it is in the tank or how much/what kind of flow you have. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I definitely vote for a beer or two and a fish nerd session to sort out the details and make something really cool happen.
I definitely vote for a beer or two and a fish nerd session to sort out the details and make something really cool happen.
What are your goals for the tank? Multi-year (10+) TOTM style reef? Play-around-with-it-and-redo-it-later kind of tank? Something in the middle? I might suggest that if you know what you want long-term, then you seek out who has done it and follow their lead.
With the starboard or glass bottom, the poo will not stick and some can eventually end up in a mechanical filter or RDSB, which are typically quite large in the good systems. You are going to have a different problem to solve since the poo will be accumulating where there is not much that can break it down and you are going to have a hard time physically removing it with the porous nature of the rock. Since you won't be able to vac it, or replace it, it could get like rock from a really mismanaged tank that is locked with organic materials, is supposed to be leeching phosphate (it doesn't actually leech, rather just breaks down the accumulated organics which does give off phosphate), is prone to growing hair algae and even cyano.
Also add some clams to your list with sand dwelling clean up crew and wrasses that you will need to avoid - some clams are OK in the rocks.
With the starboard or glass bottom, the poo will not stick and some can eventually end up in a mechanical filter or RDSB, which are typically quite large in the good systems. You are going to have a different problem to solve since the poo will be accumulating where there is not much that can break it down and you are going to have a hard time physically removing it with the porous nature of the rock. Since you won't be able to vac it, or replace it, it could get like rock from a really mismanaged tank that is locked with organic materials, is supposed to be leeching phosphate (it doesn't actually leech, rather just breaks down the accumulated organics which does give off phosphate), is prone to growing hair algae and even cyano.
Also add some clams to your list with sand dwelling clean up crew and wrasses that you will need to avoid - some clams are OK in the rocks.
I have spent the last 3 years carefully planning this tank and waiting until i can purchase the exact equipment I want regardless of the price tag. The build thus far is already HEAVILY integrated into the house so I am looking at building my ultimate dream tank thats within my means and that my modest home will allow for size wise. So that Said I am going for the long term TOTM kind of tank with the central theme being stability, stability, stability, with a whole lot of redundancy sprinkled in. I do realize that bare bottom does not = stability so don't think that's where im going with this. However I also fear the sand bed related tank crash horror stories and I hate the sand blowing around. In all likelihood this tank will probably end up with a 2-3" sand bed. For the most part im just brain storming some different ideas.
I am a big believer that you find the tank you strive to have and try to emulate it however most of the tanks that fall into this category for me are also tanks where the owner is constantly replacing a significant potion of the sand bed on a routine basis. This is really what im trying to avoid as the tank dimensions and position in the wall are going to make that a real PIA. However sounds like this rock bottom option could just be a different type of PIA.
I guess what i need to do is start a new build thread so people have a better idea of what im trying to do
I have been a sand replacer, but you can get the same results if you clean it. I am going to be cleaner from now on. Most sand related horror stories are because people think that low maintenance equal no maintenance - like Shimek. Think of the sand as a toilet... totally cool as long as you flush it from time to time (flush = replace or slowly clean). IMO - it is very important and no amount of GFO, bio pellets, etc. can do what the bacteria in the sand does. Anyway, I can do hours on the importance and ease of aragonite sand, so my apologies.
If you have enough lights, ask me sometime about the importance/ability for giant clams to be REALLY effective water filters in conjunction with the sand.
I might suggest that you read back to the year 2000 TOTM blogs on RC and see what they did, or as old as they have available online - most of the tanks back then were SPS dominant. Then, see/suppose on how any of the new "advancements" in the hobby would have helped their situation, if they happened to list some downfalls of their system. Some of these people have been TOTM again since then so you can also see what they changed over the years... and it is usually not much aside from a better skimmer. You will see some common themes for SPS dominant tanks - reasonable stocking level, some sand with a suitable crew, huge skimmers, low-risk/high-quality devices, halides and patience. You will not see too many using untested methods of anything.
Let me know if you want to stop by and see my SPS tanks - they are simple, effective and built for the long term. Since you are right behind me, it should be an easy trip.
If you have enough lights, ask me sometime about the importance/ability for giant clams to be REALLY effective water filters in conjunction with the sand.
I might suggest that you read back to the year 2000 TOTM blogs on RC and see what they did, or as old as they have available online - most of the tanks back then were SPS dominant. Then, see/suppose on how any of the new "advancements" in the hobby would have helped their situation, if they happened to list some downfalls of their system. Some of these people have been TOTM again since then so you can also see what they changed over the years... and it is usually not much aside from a better skimmer. You will see some common themes for SPS dominant tanks - reasonable stocking level, some sand with a suitable crew, huge skimmers, low-risk/high-quality devices, halides and patience. You will not see too many using untested methods of anything.
Let me know if you want to stop by and see my SPS tanks - they are simple, effective and built for the long term. Since you are right behind me, it should be an easy trip.