The future of our hobby

[scchase]

I general I agree with you but drawing the line and determining what is dangerous or not I near impossible. For instance how many islands have been destroyed by introduced rabbits, take the reef equivalent and ban importation an we lose all non native tangs, rabbitfish, etc. So rather than ban I think a twofold approach to this problem is warranted, first on the LFS side more education needs to take place like you mention, second on the back end more information needs to be made available on how to dispose of unwanted fish. Look how many Pacus, Piranhas, and Oscars are caught in local lakes each year, though fortunately winter kills them all here.


As to what the club can do, first the stated goal of the club in the bylaws is to provide education, perhaps this can extend beyond just how to keep animals alive but also into how to responsible source animals, methods to raise and reproduce them to lessen the impact on wild populations, and more information on the subject being discussed in this thread. The second thing I think the club can do is actually raise money that is given directly to organizations like PIJAC Marine Ornamental Defense Fund and similar organizations. We re great at raising money at the local level for a lot of good causes but do not seem to accomplish much beyond this level.

Although I dont agree with alot of the things they are trying to regulate and shut down, I was and still am all for the illegalization of exporting and importing lion fish in Florida. Too many relased in the wild and was destroying the local eco system as an evasive species, this is also another part of the problem with hobbiest, expecially in costal areas. "Ahhh, what a cute little lion fish", and the 2 years later, "shoot, lion fish is huge and has eaten everything in my tank, time to let him go". Although this does fall on the hobbiest, I think LFS could step up, be a bit more diligent in what theyre selling and to whom and properly educate customers on what they are about to purchase as apposed to just looking ot make a sale.

Our club seems to be pretty in tune with this. One voice alone is not going to make a mark, so what can we do as an entity to get on board with this?

 

[ReefCheif]

I general I agree with you but drawing the line and determining what is dangerous or not I near impossible. For instance how many islands have been destroyed by introduced rabbits, take the reef equivalent and ban importation an we lose all non native tangs, rabbitfish, etc. So rather than ban I think a twofold approach to this problem is warranted, first on the LFS side more education needs to take place like you mention, second on the back end more information needs to be made available on how to dispose of unwanted fish. Look how many Pacus, Piranhas, and Oscars are caught in local lakes each year, though fortunately winter kills them all here.


As to what the club can do, first the stated goal of the club in the bylaws is to provide education, perhaps this can extend beyond just how to keep animals alive but also into how to responsible source animals, methods to raise and reproduce them to lessen the impact on wild populations, and more information on the subject being discussed in this thread. The second thing I think the club can do is actually raise money that is given directly to organizations like PIJAC Marine Ornamental Defense Fund and similar organizations. We re great at raising money at the local level for a lot of good causes but do not seem to accomplish much beyond this level.

All good stuff Scott! Out of curiousity, Whats the fund raising for the September meeting going towards? Maybe this would be a good place to start. Maybe we (MASC and the BOD) can pick a specific organization to offer our support to and begin doing just that. Then we as members can help spread the word of said organization within our own communities and get more support that way as well.

 

[scchase]

I believe September is going towards helping Ken aka Milehighreefer to pay his medical bills from the past year. Great cause and I hope that we do not get away from these types of fundraisers as well, more that we need to expand our vision some.

 

[ReefCheif]

I believe September is going towards helping Ken aka Milehighreefer to pay his medical bills from the past year. Great cause and I hope that we do not get away from these types of fundraisers as well, more that we need to expand our vision some.

No doubt about it, great cause for sure!! Well, we have a foundation and ideas here, we just need to implement them. I would like to help out where ever I can, this is a very important topic for me and Ill do what ever I can.

 

[LeviK]

Side note: Please do not let this dissolve into a left/liberal vs right/conservative debate because it is not. I know plenty of people from both sides of the political spectrum that are both for and against our hobby.

Thank you! I think the biggest thing we can do is to understand that price is not everything. Buy aquacultured as much as possible and contribute to the efforts of organizations engaged in researching how to breed as well as growing corals. Ora stopped breeding mandarins because nobody wants to pay an extra $20....shame on anyone not understanding the impact of the extra $20 they spend for aquacultured animals and corals.

 

[jda123]

IMO, the best thing that a club can do is to actually educate people on the best way to keep and propagate (if possible) the organisms that they want to keep. I'll bet that most people on here have knowingly taken a short cut because of money or lack of patience or something that endangered a living creature that was taken from the ocean... everybody else probably did it without knowing.

Half of the cr@p that I saw at MACNA was not ideal for most coral but was being sold as such.

Everybody is to blame. This hobby gives nothing to the world, but neither does any other hobby. ***somebody might say that reefing gives awareness and education, but this could happen anyway with enough demand***

Most of you have seen me make a big deal about lineage with livestock. Part of this is because I know that it is captive grown if somebody can show the lineage to me. Otherwise, it can be wild stuff from the ocean and marketed to deceive and start destructive searches in the ocean for colonies that are "close" where they might mass collect and then later discard twenty to find one worth a premium. I have the same issue supporting stores that buy fish from areas with known cyanide collection. This is somewhat selfish/smart since the fish usually die anyway, but also because there are many, many wholesalers that will not use cyanide. I get venom from some people each time that I post about these things... which always amazes me... but I guess that people just want stuff cheap.

 

[lesserwhirls]

IMO, the best thing that a club can do is to actually educate people on the best way to keep and propagate (if possible) the organisms that they want to keep. I'll bet that most people on here have knowingly taken a short cut because of money or lack of patience or something that endangered a living creature that was taken from the ocean... everybody else probably did it without knowing.

Half of the cr@p that I saw at MACNA was not ideal for most coral but was being sold as such.

Everybody is to blame. This hobby gives nothing to the world, but neither does any other hobby. ***somebody might say that reefing gives awareness and education, but this could happen anyway with enough demand***

Most of you have seen me make a big deal about lineage with livestock. Part of this is because I know that it is captive grown if somebody can show the lineage to me. Otherwise, it can be wild stuff from the ocean and marketed to deceive and start destructive searches in the ocean for colonies that are "close" where they might mass collect and then later discard twenty to find one worth a premium. I have the same issue supporting stores that buy fish from areas with known cyanide collection. This is somewhat selfish/smart since the fish usually die anyway, but also because there are many, many wholesalers that will not use cyanide. I get venom from some people each time that I post about these things... which always amazes me... but I guess that people just want stuff cheap.

I've been in the hobby for about a year now, and the information in this thread has "opened my eyes", so to say. Once again, I'm glad MASC exists and that I stumbled upon it! That said, now that I am learning about these issues, I'd like to make informed decisions with regards to any purchases I make going forward in terms if where/how fish, coral, etc. are being sourced.

Having seen the awesome LFS map being put together in another thread, I wonder how many of them are upfront about where/how their livestock are sourced. Something tells me that the phrase "wild harvested using the finest quality cyanide" scribbled across a tank would be a good idea for a shop. On the other hand, I do recall seeing ORA written on tanks in the past (which now that I have an idea about what that means...).

So, here are some noob questions: Is the assumption that if source info is not mentioned (for example, ORA), then assume the worst (wild harvested using the finest quality cyanide)? What is the best way to find out? Is any of the source info recorded and made publicly available? How would you know if an employee was just trying to give you the "warm and fuzzies" rather than the full picture (well, yeah, they use cyanide, but it's a new and improved version using candy canes and unicorn farts, so it's not harmful!)? I don't feel like I've come across any LFSs that would do these things, just more hypothetical questions at this point...again, noob questions.

 

[scchase]

First for something to do today how about adding some more comments to the following article pointing out its fallacies
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/04/clownfish-endangered_n_5760702.html?utm_hp_ref=email_share

Fight misinformation with truth

 

[zombie]

Where do we go to give public comment? I couldnt find it in the site.

 

[scchase]

There are several ways to determine where livestock is sourced from the easiest is just to ask. I have found that most retailers will gladly tell you where their fish came from. The next is to look at the species that are offered, many species are only collected from specific regions even if they are much more widespread so this can be a clue. From this you can make a guess on the likelihood that a fish was cyanide caught with the Philippines in particular being a common area for cyanide caught fish. Fortunately the practice has become much more uncommon since the 90s with organizations being very successful with programs teaching net catching techniques. Even better is to look for fish that are captive raised when possible, there I very little reason to purchase a wild clownfish of most species or many dottybacks for example. Typically captive raised fish are labeled as such.
Also here is an older article on cyanide capture explaining the process better
http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-mag...uarium/august-2008/cyanide-aquarium-fish.aspx

I've been in the hobby for about a year now, and the information in this thread has "opened my eyes", so to say. Once again, I'm glad MASC exists and that I stumbled upon it! That said, now that I am learning about these issues, I'd like to make informed decisions with regards to any purchases I make going forward in terms if where/how fish, coral, etc. are being sourced.

Having seen the awesome LFS map being put together in another thread, I wonder how many of them are upfront about where/how their livestock are sourced. Something tells me that the phrase "wild harvested using the finest quality cyanide" scribbled across a tank would be a good idea for a shop. On the other hand, I do recall seeing ORA written on tanks in the past (which now that I have an idea about what that means...).

So, here are some noob questions: Is the assumption that if source info is not mentioned (for example, ORA), then assume the worst (wild harvested using the finest quality cyanide)? What is the best way to find out? Is any of the source info recorded and made publicly available? How would you know if an employee was just trying to give you the "warm and fuzzies" rather than the full picture (well, yeah, they use cyanide, but it's a new and improved version using candy canes and unicorn farts, so it's not harmful!)? I don't feel like I've come across any LFSs that would do these things, just more hypothetical questions at this point...again, noob questions.

 

[scchase]

Just add a comment in the conversations section at the bottom.

Where do we go to give public comment? I couldnt find it in the site.

 

[zombie]

Found it. Official instructions are here. http://www.ofr.gov/OFRUpload/OFRData/2014-20955_PI.pdf. I doubt commenting on an article will do anything, but if we use the proper channels and make it clear that the majority of clownfish we purchase in the aquarium trade are captive bred using these instructions, we could make a real impact.

 

[scchase]

Both are good commenting on the article reaches the general public, commenting on the study reaches the people making the decisions. People making decisions are often influenced by the public opinion on an issue.

 

[SynDen]

First for something to do today how about adding some more comments to the following article pointing out its fallacies
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/04/clownfish-endangered_n_5760702.html?utm_hp_ref=email_share

Fight misinformation with truth

Commented. Find any more articles like that, please post them up, and I will do the same. Let the war begin

 

[ReefCheif]

Scott, do you have a link to the original article you posted? I cant seem to locate it online and I wanted to post it up as well as some of these other links of the reef related facebook pages I follow.

 

[scchase]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

 

[jahmic]

I think this was the original post by Scott Fellman: http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/unique-corals/171921-reef-hobby-endangered-species.html

 

[scchase]

Oops wrong one. Here is one today that Tony Vargas posted that was written by Julian Sprung
https://www.facebook.com/tony.vargas.946/posts/10202690823660330

 

[rajah]

How many wild caught corals are sold each day? Each year? How many of those are taken into the hands of people that can't care for them? Signing a petition is great and email/writing letters to legislation is also fantastic. We need to stop purchasing wild caught livestock!

This comment is spot on!

I agree that sweeping legislature banning the distribution of aquacultured livestock would seriously threaten the hobby. However... why has that even come to the table? Because of the short-sighted collection and sale of wild livestock. It is absolutely crazy to me that some people think our hobby doesn't have a negative impact on reefs. Removing fish and coral from reefs has a negative impact. Period. Much of the coral and the vast majority of fish bought and sold today are still collected from the wild.

How do we lessen or remove that impact? By increasing demand for aquacultured livestock. Everyone of us, myself included, has put wild collected livestock into our tanks. Until we stop doing that, our hobby will have a negative impact on reefs. Disseminating this message is perhaps the best way reef clubs can help reef conservation.

One last point. Here is a list of marine fish that are "commonly available" as captive bred individuals. This list includes 15 species. Meaning essentially 100% of the tangs, wrasses, blennies, anthias, chromis, angelfish, damselfish, rabbitfish, puffers and all other fish we keep are exclusively collected in the wild! Every fish. Wake up people. How is our hobby helping reefs when we are the ones driving the demand for wild collected live stock? The only way we will have a neutral or positive effect on reef conservation is by decreasing the demand for wild collected livestock.

Apogonichthyoides melas, Black Cardinalfish*
Pterapogon kauderni, Banggai Cardinalfish
Amphiprion clarkii, Clarkii Clownfish
Amphiprion frenatus, Tomato Clownfish
Amphiprion melanopus, Cinnamon Clownfish
Amphiprion nigripes, Blackfinned Clownfish
Amphiprion ocellaris, Ocellaris Clownfish
Amphiprion percula, Percula Clownfish
Premnas biaculeatus, Maroon Clownfish
Pseudochromis aldabraensis, Neon Dottyback
Pseudochromis fridmani, Orchid Dottyback
Elacatinus oceanops, Neon Goby
Hippocampus erectus, Lined Seahorse
Hippocampus kuda, Yellow or Common Seahorse
Hippocampus reidi, Brazilian or Longsnout Seahorse

(source: http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2013...ptive-bred-marine-fish-species-list-for-2014/)

 

[jda123]

Captive corals expensive and small fragments that take patience. Wild corals are cheap and big. It is easy to care now, but will people really care when their money is on the line or they have to be in for the long haul?

Aqua or Mari cultured is a good way to go, but they have to figure out how to get the pests off of them.

I am totally fine with stopping collection of any fish that is bred in captivity. ...this way, people would have to buy the ORA mandarins and not cheap out and buy the wild ones.