Can anemones morph or fade?

[jahmic]

I've kept several BTAs under LEDs over the past year. I've definitely had color morphs, and possibly some swapping of colors. I picked up one BTA that looked like a rose (dark red, almost "rust brown"), put it in the tank with another rose, and after about 3 months it unmistakably looked like a rainbow...it had a green base with orange tips. There were no other rainbows in the tank for it to pick up zooxanthelae from. I'd have to go back and read for a refresher...but from what I understand the zooxanthellae that give a coral a brown color are used to absorb light in order to feed the coral, whereas the bright colors we all look for are from zooxanthellae that serve to protect the color from UV light. Higher intensity lighting typically helps give corals those brighter colors as it expels excess the brown zooxanthellae (since it doesn't need the extra food) and the UV light enhances coloration to protect the coral from light. Too much light and the coral is stressed and starts to bleach. Because MH puts out UV...it would make sense that you get better colors from those bulbs. But I digress...all that to say that in my case mentioned above...the increase in lighting made the coral expel the excess brown zooxanthellae and become more colorful, IMO. No swapping, and no strange morphing in that case. After adding more rainbows to the tank, however, this nem split several times (I have 4 of them now), and they are all green with pink tips...no more orange.

Next case worth mentioning...I have a rainbow in my tank that I picked up from Josh that was green with pink tips. It's since split 3 times for me; one of the nems is now green with yellow tips, the other 2 are green with pink tips. Before the second split, BOTH nems were green with yellow tips and after the split it reverted to the previous color. They clearly morphed a couple times, and are obviously under the same lighting since they are in the same tank.

I have another nem that I got from Kris...same deal...was green with pink tips and now is green with 1/2 pink and 1/2 yellow tips. That one also split and both nems have the same color. Interestingly enough, these nems only changed color after the green and yellow nem above split and morphed back to it's old color. Call be crazy, but both nems changed color within weeks of splitting...almost like they swapped colors. They split within weeks of each other, and swapped colors at the same time...and yes, I'm sure I didn't just get them all mixed up.

As for the phantom yellow color that they picked up...my best speculation is that it came from a sunburst I lost. None of the nems had any yellow in them until after I lost the sunburst. I removed it after it sat there deflated and expelling zooxanthellae for a couple weeks; all the other nems in the tank were thriving at the time, but that one was unfortunately looking pretty bad from day one and I lost it. In any case...I think it's pretty safe to assume that's where the yellow color in my other nems came from since that color never showed up in any of the nems until after I lost the sunburst.

I don't really have plans on adding a sunburst to my tank again...I'm happy with my bright rainbows. Also, a bit worried that it might pick up colors from the rainbows anyway and start to lose that sunburst coloration.

Pure speculation, and maybe everything I had happen was just coincidental so take it with a grain of salt. But...I do have 11 rainbows in my tank now, and the only one that has maintained its original color and is not mentioned above is the one that hasn't split yet. That one is green with orange tips and white speckles in it...picked it up from Josh and have added nems and had others split since adding it...but it's held the same color.

 

[Jeremiah]

Understanding you don't have a sunburst or lemon drop or rainbow, you have a quadricolor so whatever in the water made them absorb that coloration in the first place, can be lost and changed into different colors. This isn't like a fish.

I don't think that statement is completely accurate, and i think this is a discussion about these points. Lighting / zooxanthellae / anemone variations (genetics).....a few points/comparisons.

1.
*You have white, black, and every shade inbetween...all called "Homo sapiens"
*You have orange, red, green anemone...all called "E. quadricolor"

2.
*A proven fact humans change color based on lighting conditions.
*A proven fact is that corals morph color/brightness based on lighting and water chemistry.

3.
*My skin color is white, it does not matter how much my lighting conditions change. I can only get so light or so dark. My wife is native american, no matter lighting conditions she will never be as white as me under the same conditions.

And #3 is our what this discussion is about...
Is E. quadricolor just a host for the zooxanthellae? So basically a vessel that holds the zooxanthellae and it is like you said "just whatever was absorbed" so no actual differences withing the species?
Can E. quadricolor morph based on other E. quadricolor with different zooxanthellae in the same tank? Can they swap zooxanthellae?
Can zooxanthellae transfer from E. quadricolor to "E. quadricolor"...can a green E. quadricolor change into a red?
Obviously the starting question from Chad was refering to a "rainbow" and a "sunburst", but it seems like you have to take this AWAY from the conversation about sunburst to actually have a scientific discussion.

 

[SynDen]

Ya I got a purple and green nem from Fritz a while back. When I got it it was solid purple, but after a few weeks in my tank it is now bright green with purple tips. It also lives next to my rainbow and it appears to be picking up a bit of the orange from the rainbow. The rainbow has also gotten a much brighter green base since I added the green one.

 

[SynDen]

So I am curious, I had some weird dream about this subject last night, oddly enough. But if you were to take two different bubble tips, say a lemon drop and a green, and manually split both with a razor blade. The took the splits for the two and somehow managed to get the lemon and the green split to fuse back together into one, would you get a new color morph? Would that even be possible?

Not that I am advocating "frankenstien'ing" your nems but have seen people manually split with a razor blade and have seen nems split but then seemly unsplit and re-fuse together, so seems like it might be possible, if improbable to fuse different nems together and create a new morph

 

[charleshardy5]

So I am curious, I had some weird dream about this subject last night, oddly enough. But if you were to take two different bubble tips, say a lemon drop and a green, and manually split both with a razor blade. The took the splits for the two and somehow managed to get the lemon and the green split to fuse back together into one, would you get a new color morph? Would that even be possible?

mind=blown how awesome would that be

 

[Skrappy]

NOT MY PICTURE! pulled this off google. View attachment 20633

 

[jda123]

I think that photo was admitted to be a photoshop job on RC. Fake. You can see it if you blow it up.

The last paper that I read concluded that e. quadricolor are not capable of getting zooanthle from other 'nems. However, more/less of what they have/show can be dominant depending on conditions. When they look the same, it is likely because a restricted/smaller spectrum grows "pink" or "red" or "whatever" better than the rest and they all focus on growing on this in waves and not the other colors that made them distinct. I can tell you that under a true full-spectrum and right-spectrum light source that all of the BTAs that I have keep all of their colors and don't look the same at all.

I have always wondered if you could kill all of a certain type of diatom and remove that color from a 'nem forever... nobody knew when I asked.

 

[Jeremiah]

I think that photo was admitted to be a photoshop job on RC. Fake. You can see it if you blow it up.

The last paper that I read concluded that e. quadricolor are not capable of getting zooanthle from other 'nems. However, more/less of what they have/show can be dominant depending on conditions. When they look the same, it is likely because a restricted/smaller spectrum grows "pink" or "red" or "whatever" better than the rest and they all focus on growing on this in waves and not the other colors that made them distinct. I can tell you that under a true full-spectrum and right-spectrum light source that all of the BTAs that I have keep all of their colors and don't look the same at all.

I have always wondered if you could kill all of a certain type of diatom and remove that color from a 'nem forever... nobody knew when I asked.

Thanks for sharing, that really interesting information.

So maybe when they spit not all of the types of zoo transfer to the new copy. Some have said that they know 100% they have sunburst and shown pictures of different copies that look different from the parent...so maybe with enough splits...ie parent, child, grand child, great grand child...enough zoo types are not transfered to give a whole different look and that great grand child might never be able to color up like the original????

 

[jahmic]

I don't think that statement is completely accurate, and i think this is a discussion about these points. Lighting / zooxanthellae / anemone variations (genetics).....a few points/comparisons.

1.
*You have white, black, and every shade inbetween...all called "Homo sapiens"
*You have orange, red, green anemone...all called "E. quadricolor"

2.
*A proven fact humans change color based on lighting conditions.
*A proven fact is that corals morph color/brightness based on lighting and water chemistry.

3.
*My skin color is white, it does not matter how much my lighting conditions change. I can only get so light or so dark. My wife is native american, no matter lighting conditions she will never be as white as me under the same conditions.

And #3 is our what this discussion is about...
Is E. quadricolor just a host for the zooxanthellae? So basically a vessel that holds the zooxanthellae and it is like you said "just whatever was absorbed" so no actual differences withing the species?
Can E. quadricolor morph based on other E. quadricolor with different zooxanthellae in the same tank? Can they swap zooxanthellae?
Can zooxanthellae transfer from E. quadricolor to "E. quadricolor"...can a green E. quadricolor change into a red?
Obviously the starting question from Chad was refering to a "rainbow" and a "sunburst", but it seems like you have to take this AWAY from the conversation about sunburst to actually have a scientific discussion.

Melanin and zooxanthellae are 2 completely different things. Melanin is produced within someone's cells by the consumption of amino acids. It's production is controlled by an individual's genetics. Zooxanthellae is an algae that forms a symbiotic relationship with the coral. They are 2 completely different forms of life "living together" for a mutual benefit. As far as the evolutionary aspect goes...at some point zooxanthellae found their way into corals and allowed both species of life to thrive. So yes, the coral is essentially a "host" for the zooxanthellae, although that's not the most accurate term for their relationship...but in short the coral does allow the algae to thrive and at some point...perhaps millions of years ago...the relationship was formed. Over time, one could assume that certain species of coral have evolved with genetic mutations that allow them to host specific sub-types of zooxanthellae which lends to the vast color variations we see in types of corals...and would explain why most species of coral tend to "keep their color". Nems wouldn't be excluded...but if all BTAs are E. quadricolor, then IMHO it would seem entirely plausible that they would be able to swap colors to some extent. A green BTA may never completely turn into a rose BTA because of slight genetic mutations that give them an affinity to a specific sub-type of zooxanthellae, but IMHO the assumption that they can and never do swap colors doesn't make much sense.

Here's an interesting article for anybody that wants to read a bit. http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic653142.files/envr140_termpaper6_coral_reef_bleaching.pdf

Obviously, more research is needed to confirm the theory they present...but I've come across several articles on the subject; some with more "hard" scientific evidence than others. Nevertheless...here's an excerpt:

Another theory that was advanced by Buddemeirer and Fautin a decade ago is the “Adaptive Bleaching Hypothesis”, according to which bleaching is an adaptive mechanism allowing the coral to become
repopulated with a different type of zooxanthellae, which has a greater stress resistance. It has been
also found that unusual algal symbionts that are thermally tolerant are more abundant on reefs affected
by climate change.


This would indicate that the biological adaptedness may be one of the characteristics of the coral - algal
association that may occur within a coral’s lifetime, without involving changes in its genes.
While some coral species seem to be inflexible in their associations, flexibility between many coral
species and various zooxanthellae types may be the norm for many species. The more resistant strains
do not need to be acquired from the environment, but may already exist within a coral colony. A
climatic disturbance and resulting bleaching could affect community dominance and allow for an
increase in the population of the strains that are better adapted.

 

[jahmic]

The last paper that I read concluded that e. quadricolor are not capable of getting zooanthle from other 'nems.

You know I'm a science nerd...got a link? I really want to read it There's obviously tons of conflicting research since this is all fairly new so I wouldn't mind seeing another argument on the same topic.

 

[jda123]

I will look through my email and try and find a link - if I posted to the thread, then I will be able to find it. Here was the crux: the algae (diatoms) in the organism have formed a symbiotic bond over much time. Other "strains" of diatoms have not and will get rejected by the host as invaders.

This is not dissimilar to any other animal. Our body houses certain bacteria symbiotically, but others get rejected.

Most of the zoas that we keep are zoanthidae->zoanthus and nobody has ever seen a red hornet and a blue hornet make a purple hornet by being the tank together.

 

[jahmic]

I will look through my email and try and find a link - if I posted to the thread, then I will be able to find it. Here was the crux: the algae (diatoms) in the organism have formed a symbiotic bond over much time. Other "strains" of diatoms have not and will get rejected by the host as invaders.

This is not dissimilar to any other animal. Our body houses certain bacteria symbiotically, but others get rejected.

Most of the zoas that we keep are zoanthidae->zoanthus and nobody has ever seen a red hornet and a blue hornet make a purple hornet by being the tank together.

Cool thanks. And the concept that the bond formed over thousands if not millions of years was part of what I touched on in my post. Where I think it's entirely plausible that independent evolution of the same species in different areas led to slight genetic mutations that give an essentially identical coral an affinity to one color zooxanthellae vs another, it seems equally plausible that there would be enough overlap for at least some swapping of zooxanthellae between the same species of coral given genetic similarities. I'd agree that a rose could never turn green or vice-versa...but the potential for similar morphs to share zooxanthellae seems like it wouldn't be out of the question. Perhaps I'm biased after what I observed in my tank...still curious to read the article either way though

 

[Jeremiah]

https://answersingenesis.org/origin...id-show-evolutionary-root-plants-and-animals/

Interesting read, don't know that it helps much, just interesting...

 

[Jeremiah]

http://bonsainut.com/images/Color morphs C. gigantea.pdf


Ludwig-Maximilian Universitaet Grosshaderner Str. 2 82152 Planegg-Martinsried Germany
Marine Biology (Impact Factor: 2.47). 06/2005; 147(3):747-754. DOI: 10.1007/s00227-005-1620-y
ABSTRACT The distribution of phenotypic and genetic variation across environments can provide insights into local adaptation. The tropical sea anemone Condylactis gigantea inhabits a broad spectrum of coral-reef habitats and displays a variety of phenotypes, particularly with respect to color. At the coast of Discovery Bay, Jamaica, individuals with either pink or green tentacle tips show distinct distributions. Pink morphs are more abundant in the lagoon and in deeper areas, while green morphs are more abundant in the forereef and in shallower areas. We use DNA sequence data (ITS1-5.8S) to investigate if variation in color is associated with genetic differentiation in lagoon and forereef habitats about 5km apart. Population genetic analyses reveal two distinct ITS1-5.8S variants, which differ in relative frequency. The two variants are present in both habitats, but a dearth of intermediates suggests reduced gene flow. In the lagoon, but not the forereef, ITS variants show an association with color. In order to address the potential ecological significance of color, we study UV absorbance and UV acclimatization capacities of pink and green color morphs in the lagoon. Color morphs differed significantly in UV-B absorbance. These results suggest genetic and ecological differentiation in the face of gene flow over short distances.

 

[LeviK]

I don't think that statement is completely accurate, and i think this is a discussion about these points. Lighting / zooxanthellae / anemone variations (genetics).....a few points/comparisons.

1.
*You have white, black, and every shade inbetween...all called "Homo sapiens"
*You have orange, red, green anemone...all called "E. quadricolor"

2.
*A proven fact humans change color based on lighting conditions.
*A proven fact is that corals morph color/brightness based on lighting and water chemistry.

3.
*My skin color is white, it does not matter how much my lighting conditions change. I can only get so light or so dark. My wife is native american, no matter lighting conditions she will never be as white as me under the same conditions.

And #3 is our what this discussion is about...
Is E. quadricolor just a host for the zooxanthellae? So basically a vessel that holds the zooxanthellae and it is like you said "just whatever was absorbed" so no actual differences withing the species?
Can E. quadricolor morph based on other E. quadricolor with different zooxanthellae in the same tank? Can they swap zooxanthellae?
Can zooxanthellae transfer from E. quadricolor to "E. quadricolor"...can a green E. quadricolor change into a red?
Obviously the starting question from Chad was refering to a "rainbow" and a "sunburst", but it seems like you have to take this AWAY from the conversation about sunburst to actually have a scientific discussion.

Yes to all your points!

 

[Jeremiah]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/6/inverts
This one is interesting, didn't realize my anemone had a sex.

"When it comes to reproduction, BTAs do have separate sexes. Some are male and some female, and they will spawn from time to time by releasing large numbers of sperm and eggs into surrounding waters"

 

[SynDen]

This maybe a dumb question or I'm just misinterpreting but I am curious, how did the original Colorado Sunburst come into being? Somewhere along the way it adopted in the yellow zooxanthellae which isnt present in other rose nems, and is one of the rarest of the zooxanthellae.
Was this somehow a forced genetic mutation? Or was it that the yellow has always been there and was just simply brought out by lighting in the aquaria? Is it actually yellow zooxanthellae or is it just Orange zooxanthellae that has slightly deviated enough that we perceive it as yellow?
If it is either of the later two then does a 'true' Colorado sunburst actually exist or are they just simply a rainbow that has been under specific lighting for a time and then sold as this morph, even though it actually isnt a genetic morph at all? If so then have we all been duped into believing otherwise so we would shell out large amounts of cash? Could we all just buy a rainbow, play with the lighting a bit and 'create' our own Sunburst?
Because, and I may be just reading this wrong, if they can't adopt new zooxanthellae then that begs the question of whether they really are a different strain that is worth the cash that we pay out for these things

 

[jahmic]

This maybe a dumb question or I'm just misinterpreting but I am curious, how did the original Colorado Sunburst come into being? Somewhere along the way it adopted in the yellow zooxanthellae which isnt present in other rose nems, and is one of the rarest of the zooxanthellae.
Was this somehow a forced genetic mutation? Or was it that the yellow has always been there and was just simply brought out by lighting in the aquaria? Is it actually yellow zooxanthellae or is it just Orange zooxanthellae that has slightly deviated enough that we perceive it as yellow?
If it is either of the later two then does a 'true' Colorado sunburst actually exist or are they just simply a rainbow that has been under specific lighting for a time and then sold as this morph, even though it actually isnt a genetic morph at all? If so then have we all been duped into believing otherwise so we would shell out large amounts of cash? Could we all just buy a rainbow, play with the lighting a bit and 'create' our own Sunburst?
Because, and I may be just reading this wrong, if they can't adopt new zooxanthellae then that begs the question of whether they really are a different strain that is worth the cash that we pay out for these things

 

[Jeremiah]

View attachment 20634

Doesn't work...

 

[Munch]

I see it.